Bottom line - If you have the space for a pair of large sulcatas to forage for most of their food, there is a bit of money to be made in selling their babies. The problem is non-education and impulse buying.
Why do people breed Sulcata's
- Thread starter Candy
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emysemys said:
Just like there's a bit of money to be made breeding redfoots, drilling for oil and washing windows. There is nothing wrong with making a bit of money for your work.
It's a temporary enclosure. The fact the owner did not throw you out and was willing to listen to your suggestions should have given you a clue that the owner was well intentioned.
In the UK there are what they call Tortoise Nazis... I'll leave it at that.
In the UK there are what they call Tortoise Nazis... I'll leave it at that.
Candy said:
EJ try reading the entire thread and you might get the right information before you post a response next time. I said nothing about any owner being on site. What I posted was that I spoke with a girl and she was nice enough to give me the owners address. And as for throwing someone out because they have a concern about one of the animals that you are trying to sell would (as long as they're not being disruptive) would not be a very wise business move do you think? Just because people voice their concerns is no reason for anyone to take offense especially if you are dealing with the public everyday and you want to keep your business going. And as for the owner being as you say, "well intentioned", I guess you had also passed up him being sited before (more then once). Plus, we're not in the UK.
Interesting post Tyler. I wonder if this goes for puppy mills also. I mean all they're really doing is trying to earn a buck, right? And what about the stuff that's sold through Child Labor Camps? I mean all there trying to do is sell stuff cheap, doesn't make it right though.
TylerStewart said:
Interesting post Tyler. I wonder if this goes for puppy mills also. I mean all they're really doing is trying to earn a buck, right? And what about the stuff that's sold through Child Labor Camps? I mean all there trying to do is sell stuff cheap, doesn't make it right though.
I have seen great people breed tortoises responsibly, and I have seen horrible people profit off of Sulcatas without the slightest care as to the kind of lives they will be living. I don’t think this should be an argument about whether or not breeding Sulcatas is wrong; I think it’s really about the people involved. There are good breeders and bad breeders and good pet owners and bad pet owners in every pet trade.
But it’s definitely easier to be an irresponsible pet owner/breeder in the case of 100 pound reptiles.
Candy- your story really resonates with me because my Sulcata came from a horrible situation brought about by irresponsible breeders, distributors, and pet owners combined. There is also a pet store right near my house that advocates really outdated and damaging husbandry for the Sulcatas they carry. I’ve watched the same hatchlings living on rabbit pellets in a dirty tank with other tortoises trampling over them, no water, and only one spindly coil bulb, for the entire almost-year I have lived here. If 11 months still qualifies as a “temporary enclosure,†then I guess they’re doing nothing wrong. :/
I'd really like to ask the owners if the few hatchlings that have disappeared were sold, or died.
But it’s definitely easier to be an irresponsible pet owner/breeder in the case of 100 pound reptiles.
Candy- your story really resonates with me because my Sulcata came from a horrible situation brought about by irresponsible breeders, distributors, and pet owners combined. There is also a pet store right near my house that advocates really outdated and damaging husbandry for the Sulcatas they carry. I’ve watched the same hatchlings living on rabbit pellets in a dirty tank with other tortoises trampling over them, no water, and only one spindly coil bulb, for the entire almost-year I have lived here. If 11 months still qualifies as a “temporary enclosure,†then I guess they’re doing nothing wrong. :/
I'd really like to ask the owners if the few hatchlings that have disappeared were sold, or died.
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All I can say is that my hubby initially had obsessed about getting a sulcata and I'm so glad I put my foot down and said no because there was no way that we could have cared for it the way some of you do dedicating a whole shed and a backyard, trucking the produce to feed the animal, and...etc. Accolade for you all who loves the sullies and takes good care of them.
Candy said:
Big difference.... There is no population problem with sulcatas like there is with dogs and cats. The apparent problem only exists in a few very rare cases, and in many other's minds.
Child labor camps - Sure it's not right, but much the stuff you (and I, and most of us) buy has gone through child labor process at some point. It's not right, but the only way to protest your anger towards it is to move into the middle of the desert and produce your own food, shelter and clothing. Standing in front of Wal Mart with a sign isn't going to change anything that's happening in China.
TylerStewart said:
Just FYI, there are labor injustices in the united states too.
http://www.corpwatch.org/section.php?id=184
And boycotting is one way people are making a difference, as is legal action and creating groups that aid workers.
The parallel in the tortoise world would be not buying hatchling sulcatas from bad pet stores/breeders, or lobbying to get standards of care set for tortoises as there are for dogs/cats.
I don't think Candy was referring to an overpopulation problem as much as an improper care problem, such as bad breeders giving sick Sulcatas to bad chain pet stores who sell them to apartment dwellers and 12 year olds along with a 10 gallon tank full of sand. Obviously, not all breeders/distributes are like this, but some are. I think the comparison to puppy mills is fair; these people don't care about the health of their animals, they don't care about the health of their products, all they care about is profit. It's different if you're looking at the population issue, but not so different if you looking at the quality of life of the animals.
Well at least Kayti got my point. I didn't compare population Tyler. You said "to make a bit of money". No difference like Kayti said in her post. My point was that Puppy Mills are to make a quick sale off of the animal no difference between them and a bad Sulcata Breeder. And I don't agree on the activist thing. A lot of people have made a difference by standing in front of Walmart. Why do you think you used that terminology?
Candy said:
So you think it's a fair comparison to say that a bad sulcata breeder is like the manager of a child labor camp? I got your point, it was just innacurate.
I'd like a definition of a "bad sulcata breeder." If I sell a sulcata to someone who is well intentioned, keeps it for 10 years, then loses their house and is forced to get rid of it, does that make me a bad sulcata breeder since an animal that I produced eventually became unwanted? Almost everyone is well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but circumstances change, and some of them become less of a priority than they once were. The other 95% of them make lots of families and kids very happy, like everyone that I know that has a big sulcata.
A protester standing in front of Wal Mart is not going to close down a child labor camp in China. On a local level, I see where they might have some influence, but the last thing that China cares about is a bunch of retired ladies and laid off union workers protesting Wal Mart.
So you think it's a fair comparison to say that a bad sulcata breeder is like the manager of a child labor camp? I got your point, it was just innacurate
No who is inaccurate is not me Tyler, but you. I'm wondering where I compared a Child Labor Camp to a bad Sulcata Breeder? We were talking about making a buck that was the point of the conversation. That's why I brought up Child Labor Camps. Well I don't know if I could give you a definition of a "Bad Sulcata Breeder", but there's a few that I've seen on this site alone (and no it's not you). I myself think that these people are selfish about how they go about their breeding. I think they could care less about who they sell to as long as they get the money for them. i also think that they could care less about how the Sulcata is going to end up in the long run. And this is why I compared them to Puppy Mills.
Almost everyone is well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but circumstances change, and some of them become less of a priority than they once were. The other 95% of them make lots of families and kids very happy, like everyone that I know that has a big sulcata.
I think you are probably right that people are well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but this is not just any tortoise. This is a huge thing that will eventually grow to be the size that even a man can't pick up and move. How many households (and I'm talking about my state California) do you think really want to have something that big? I'm sorry maybe I phrased that wrong I should have said "How many households do you think can handle something that big"? Oh they're cute for a while and then they're a very big responsibility that I know I wouldn't want to have. Are you trying to say that you sell that many Sulcata's and if you do where are they going to I'm curious? I mean are you selling 50 to 100 a year? Are they selling better than your other tortoises?
And Tyler about the Walmart thing. It does start with one person protesting and I'm not talking about shutting down Walmart just making people aware of things helps them make their own decisions on who they would like to do business with. How do you think we found out about what Walmart was doing? It took someone to put it out there don't you think?
No who is inaccurate is not me Tyler, but you. I'm wondering where I compared a Child Labor Camp to a bad Sulcata Breeder? We were talking about making a buck that was the point of the conversation. That's why I brought up Child Labor Camps. Well I don't know if I could give you a definition of a "Bad Sulcata Breeder", but there's a few that I've seen on this site alone (and no it's not you). I myself think that these people are selfish about how they go about their breeding. I think they could care less about who they sell to as long as they get the money for them. i also think that they could care less about how the Sulcata is going to end up in the long run. And this is why I compared them to Puppy Mills.
Almost everyone is well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but circumstances change, and some of them become less of a priority than they once were. The other 95% of them make lots of families and kids very happy, like everyone that I know that has a big sulcata.
I think you are probably right that people are well intentioned when they buy a tortoise, but this is not just any tortoise. This is a huge thing that will eventually grow to be the size that even a man can't pick up and move. How many households (and I'm talking about my state California) do you think really want to have something that big? I'm sorry maybe I phrased that wrong I should have said "How many households do you think can handle something that big"? Oh they're cute for a while and then they're a very big responsibility that I know I wouldn't want to have. Are you trying to say that you sell that many Sulcata's and if you do where are they going to I'm curious? I mean are you selling 50 to 100 a year? Are they selling better than your other tortoises?
And Tyler about the Walmart thing. It does start with one person protesting and I'm not talking about shutting down Walmart just making people aware of things helps them make their own decisions on who they would like to do business with. How do you think we found out about what Walmart was doing? It took someone to put it out there don't you think?
It seems we are straying off topic...
People breed and sell Sulcatas because there is a market. It's a pretty simple concept.
You can still buy and sell RES... why not Sulcatas.
Whether you like this practice or not is not really relevent to the question as it is written.
People breed and sell Sulcatas because there is a market. It's a pretty simple concept.
You can still buy and sell RES... why not Sulcatas.
Whether you like this practice or not is not really relevent to the question as it is written.
Wait--didn't Candy originally ask the question?
I thought that meant she got to decide the meaning of the question, or at least the interpretation. Maybe she was questioning the moral aspect, not the presence of a market.
I thought that meant she got to decide the meaning of the question, or at least the interpretation. Maybe she was questioning the moral aspect, not the presence of a market.
Candy said:
So would someone that offered sulcatas wholesale be considered a bad sulcata breeder? I'm still looking for what makes one breeder a bad one versus another breeder being a good one. I don't really care much if you consider me a bad one, I just want to know what qualifies me as that to you. I have sold sulcatas wholesale in the past.... Does that mean I'm a bad sulcata breeder? Either way, the breeder makes money whether it is retail or wholesale. Does that make someone selfish? Greedy? It seems to me that the fact that money changes hands is what makes it evil, in your opinion.
Candy said:
I've never seen a sulcata that was too big for me to physically move, and I'm skinny. I moved my entire group recently from one property to another, and it wasn't mission impossible. I know that somewhere out there on the internet, it says that they get to be 250-300 pounds, but in all reality, this is rare.
Candy said:
What, do you want the customer's names? Addresses? Out of fear of you and Yvonne and Meg burning my house down, I'm not going to admit to how many sulcatas I sell. Maybe in a different forum, but not the anti sulcata one LOL.
I thought so. Are we positive that "Bob" wasn't one of yours and now Maggie has to take care of this character. lol And really Tyler do you think Yvonne goes around picking up Dudley and moving him from here to there. Got ya! 
-EJ said:
I thought it was strange he way she kept glaring at me at the Anaheim show, but that would explain it. Candy, you know I'm happily married. Your signature shows that you have a husband. You should be ashamed of yourself.
You guys are something else. I am soooo laughing right now. Your right Tyler I'm married and he's 6 foot 3 inches tall and weights about 250lbs. I guess he'd have no problem picking up one of your Sulcatas. lol Anyway your right EJ, Tyler is very cute, but I do think that I've got him by just a few years, but it's a good try. Afterall I saw his wife and she very pretty. They make a very nice looking family.
Money doesn't really enter into the question of morality.
I think, and I think Candy would agree, that someone who sets up a situation to create an animal in captivity has a responsibility to ensure a certain quality of life for that animal.
Obviously, that's pretty difficult to do, and especially difficult to do if you're looking to make a profit.
When I was breeding Betta fish, I had to find a lot of homes for the fish I created. I found out pretty fast that it simply wasn't possible to be absolutely certain each fish would have a perfect life after they left my apartment. But there are things you can do- like give people good care sheets, ask them if they know what they're doing, talk to them, etc.
I think animal breeders that don't even make an effort are bad breeders; especially with the kind of pets that a lot of people don't know how to keep- viz. tortoises. My hatch-ling's sibling wouldn't have died if some breeder had made a tiny bit of effort to explain basic care to the retailer buying them.
Making sure that people buying baby tortoises at least know that tortoises need water doesn't seem that hard to me. I feel like stores buying tortoises from reputable breeders would want to know what such an experienced keeper has to say about tortoise care. After all, it's in their best interest to sell products that don't die six months after you pay $100+ for them. And people with dead tortoises don't come back to buy reptile supplies either.
TylerStewart said:
You guys got all silly while I was typing up my serious post! Dorks. I want more heated debate so I can keep procrastinating my O Chem final. (puke)
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