Why do reptiles need UVB?

[fifthdawn]

I'm just curious. All proper reptile setups have UVB lamps, not including nocturnal types and rainforest species. And they need it for calcium binding, most usually don't supplement them.

But for other pets like...hamsters, birds, dogs, etc. Dogs get sunlight during walks but I doubt its too much. The smaller mammals don't usually get walked yet, you never see a UVB lamp in their enclosure. I would assume all of the D3 is in the diet or supplements. But for reptiles, it would be considered bad advice to rely on supplement alone.

So I'm just curious, do mammals have other ways of making D3? Do they just not need as much?

My theory is because turtles, lizards, and snake have shell and scales, so they need higher calcium.

But I'm not sure. So I'm curious why.

 

[Kayti]

That's a good question, I wondered that too. I know some carnivores get D3 from the animals they eat, but I doubt they get ALL they need. And what about the herbivores?

 

[-EJ]

You're asking a couple different questions.

Reptiles do not NEED uvb. In the case of omnivours... they get it through their food.

Herbivours... need supplementation... D3.

You're question is interesting in that... what about nocturnal herbivors... I personally can't think of any.

Most formulated diets do contain D3. This is one of the reasons why I push the Mazuri diet... UVB is not needed on that diet.

Mammals are omnivours for the most part. Those that aren't need UVB or supplementation. In the case of northern and extreme southern lattitudes of humans... that is why many foods are fortified with D3 to prevent rickets.

I'm just curious. All proper reptile setups have UVB lamps, not including nocturnal types and rainforest species. And they need it for calcium binding, most usually don't supplement them.

But for other pets like...hamsters, birds, dogs, etc. Dogs get sunlight during walks but I doubt its too much. The smaller mammals don't usually get walked yet, you never see a UVB lamp in their enclosure. I would assume all of the D3 is in the diet or supplements. But for reptiles, it would be considered bad advice to rely on supplement alone.

So I'm just curious, do mammals have other ways of making D3? Do they just not need as much?

My theory is because turtles, lizards, and snake have shell and scales, so they need higher calcium.

But I'm not sure. So I'm curious why.

 

[fifthdawn]

So most omnivours don't need D3?

As for nocturnal herbivours. Umm I think crested geckos or most geckos are mainly nocturnal herbivores. They do eat insect but I don't think theres D3 in insects. I've been doing some research on crested geckos since I'm thinking about getting some and they can live straight from crested gecko diet, which a lot of crested gecko care takers use. So the D3 is supplemented in this case.

In some sense, if ominivores can get it through their food, then you can just supplement the d3 into herbivore's food. In both case, they're getting it through food, if this makes any sense. Then arguably, you should be able to have any reptile kept without UVB.

Of course this would lead to the argument that you can overdose or underdose. But ominvores eat a fixed amount of meat, without having to worry about overdose or underdose. Its not like they know exactly how much D3 is in their diet and exactly how much to eat. Yet, you don't really see other pets have bone problems, its also as if they get "just the right amount" all the time.

 

[-EJ]

It depends on what they are fed or eat. If they are getting whole animals... they probably do not need supplementation.

I use Mazuri for my Leacheanus and I know a big breeder of the Ciliatus in the UK that uses a similar Mazuri.

It's not an argument. I've been saying this for years and the UVB bulbs have been around for a relatively short time.

So most omnivours don't need D3?

As for nocturnal herbivours. Umm I think crested geckos or most geckos are mainly nocturnal herbivores. They do eat insect but I don't think theres D3 in insects. I've been doing some research on crested geckos since I'm thinking about getting some and they can live straight from crested gecko diet, which a lot of crested gecko care takers use. So the D3 is supplemented in this case.

In some sense, if ominivores can get it through their food, then you can just supplement the d3 into herbivore's food. In both case, they're getting it through food, if this makes any sense. Then arguably, you should be able to have any reptile kept without UVB.

Of course this would lead to the argument that you can overdose or underdose. But ominvores eat a fixed amount of meat, without having to worry about overdose or underdose. Its not like they know exactly how much D3 is in their diet and exactly how much to eat. Yet, you don't really see other pets have bone problems, its also as if they get "just the right amount" all the time.

 

[reptylefreek]

I think sun is more natural... so many of these animals you are talking about live where its sunny. Most keepers try to take a somewhat natural approach to care for their reptiles, to simulate as best as possible the natural enviroment. Have you ever gone outside when it was a nice sunny but maybe cool day. Did it make you feel better in any way? I think doctors have proved that if you are constantly depressed sun is a great fix to start with. I have seen some animals get kinda depressed looking when there is no UVB. Just my personal opinion

 

[Kadaan]

Many nocturnal animals like geckos have very thin skin and can process very low levels of UVB. They either wake up at dusk, or go to sleep at dawn, so they get small amounts of UVB from the setting/rising sun.

The main reason I think providing UVB lighting can be good is because animals can regulate how much of it they get. If they feel that they need more, they can spend more time basking under it. If they need less, they can move away from it. With supplementing, they get what you give them and that's it. If you give them too much and they overdose, they can't do anything about it.

 

[terryo]

Aren't your torts outside most of the time Ed?

 

[-EJ]

The majority of my tortoises are indoors... no UVB.

Aren't your torts outside most of the time Ed?

---

Keep in mind that this discussion is about if UVB is necessary... it is not.

It definately is beneficial. When I first found the UV Heat lamps and experimented with the tortoises I mentioned that there was a noticable increase activity level in the tortoises... I was met with arguments that this does not mean anything. It's ironic how the discussion went for 'it does not mean anything' to 'it's a necessity'.

Lets see where the pelleted diets go in the years to come.

Many nocturnal animals like geckos have very thin skin and can process very low levels of UVB. They either wake up at dusk, or go to sleep at dawn, so they get small amounts of UVB from the setting/rising sun.

The main reason I think providing UVB lighting can be good is because animals can regulate how much of it they get. If they feel that they need more, they can spend more time basking under it. If they need less, they can move away from it. With supplementing, they get what you give them and that's it. If you give them too much and they overdose, they can't do anything about it.

 

[Madkins007]

Most animals that live completely outside of the sun- true nocturnal, troglodytes, deep sea, etc. depend on high D sources- animals, plants, etc.- and then themselves require relatively little levels for one reason or another. We focus on vitamin D3, but many animals can use D2 as well- it just does not work as well or last for as long, and D2 is found in many plants, especially mushrooms.

A lot of our small caged critters, mostly rodents or similar, get D2 and D3 in their pelleted or packaged diets or vitamins. Rats, for example, apparently cannot use D3 and get all of their needs from D2. It has been noted, however, that a lot of common indoor pets do better if they have access to UVB or natural sunlight.

I have not seen it in so many words, but a lot of scholarly discussions seem to suggest that most animals do best with at least a little natural UVA and B, then dietary D3 and/or D2 on top- with the reminder that D is stored in the system, so too much can be a problem. It often sounds like a little UVB can act to prime the pump to make D3 more useful- but that is my impression, not anything anyone has said.

 

[-EJ]

D2 is converted to D3 in the skin via UVB (don't quote me on that)

Most animals that live completely outside of the sun- true nocturnal, troglodytes, deep sea, etc. depend on high D sources- animals, plants, etc.- and then themselves require relatively little levels for one reason or another. We focus on vitamin D3, but many animals can use D2 as well- it just does not work as well or last for as long, and D2 is found in many plants, especially mushrooms.

A lot of our small caged critters, mostly rodents or similar, get D2 and D3 in their pelleted or packaged diets or vitamins. Rats, for example, apparently cannot use D3 and get all of their needs from D2. It has been noted, however, that a lot of common indoor pets do better if they have access to UVB or natural sunlight.

I have not seen it in so many words, but a lot of scholarly discussions seem to suggest that most animals do best with at least a little natural UVA and B, then dietary D3 and/or D2 on top- with the reminder that D is stored in the system, so too much can be a problem. It often sounds like a little UVB can act to prime the pump to make D3 more useful- but that is my impression, not anything anyone has said.

 

[reptylefreek]

I'm too scared to do no UVB and supplement with D3. I tried it once with a beardie and had horific results that weren't noticable till it was too late. But I really had no idea the science in it. The people who experiment with this, TO ME, are kinda pioneers. Only because I cant remember the days without UVB lamps.

 

[-EJ]

Using mazuri and T-rex diets I've had no problems... yet. 10 years with the Mazuri and about 3 years with the T-Rex.

I'm too scared to do no UVB and supplement with D3. I tried it once with a beardie and had horific results that weren't noticable till it was too late. But I really had no idea the science in it. The people who experiment with this, TO ME, are kinda pioneers. Only because I cant remember the days without UVB lamps.

 

[Meg90]

Again, this is one opinion on the matter. I would never keep a diurnal animal without UVB.

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rxhuuIcnTA

Just like with tortoises, there is a debate on whether or not tegus need UVB. The owner of the tegu in the video, did not think so. Bobby told me on the phone that after she was xrayed, she was humanely euthanized because her bones didn't even have the consistency of jello. Tegus eat an omnivorous diet, complete with whole prey items. And look what happened with the absence of UVB.

Look at picture after picture of sullys, russians, and boxies kept without UVB lighting and tell me they don't need it. IMO they do.

And until someone shows me scientific, documentation otherwise, I am not taking someone's opinion to the bank and putting my animals at risk. And by documentation I mean bone density records, calcium reserve levels, as well as the standard blood Ca level of "healthy" animals kept without UVB. Since it is utilized to help the body process Ca.

 

[-EJ]

How did they keep reptiles before UVB lamps. Does anyone remember VitaLites?

What you are demonstrating is that if you do not provide a mechanism to metabolize calcium... you run into problems. UVB is not the only means to provide that mechanism.

Again, this is one opinion on the matter. I would never keep a diurnal animal without UVB.

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rxhuuIcnTA

Just like with tortoises, there is a debate on whether or not tegus need UVB. The owner of the tegu in the video, did not think so. Bobby told me on the phone that after she was xrayed, she was humanely euthanized because her bones didn't even have the consistency of jello. Tegus eat an omnivorous diet, complete with whole prey items. And look what happened with the absence of UVB.

Look at picture after picture of sullys, russians, and boxies kept without UVB lighting and tell me they don't need it. IMO they do.

And until someone shows me scientific, documentation otherwise, I am not taking someone's opinion to the bank and putting my animals at risk. And by documentation I mean bone density records, calcium reserve levels, as well as the standard blood Ca level of "healthy" animals kept without UVB. Since it is utilized to help the body process Ca.

 

[reptylefreek]

I'm not agreeing with anyone but all this person did was read that he could supplement. It never says how much he gave. He could have given it every day, like you would get UV, or he could have given it once and just said he did all the time. That to me is not a valid argument. There are so many varibles that are missing.

 

[Meg90]

Look around for threads in the box turtle section. We have had several new members come with deformed box turtles "tortoises" to be identified, and many so deformed its hard to look at them. All are from a combination of improper supplementation of Ca and no UVB.

To defend the fact that diurnal animals can live WITHOUT a replica of the sun is ludicrous to me. Can carnivores live without protein and be fed soy? Humans metabolize it the same, but would wolves?

Personally, if defense of this argument is given, my next question would be if you would put your money where your mouth is, and put all your torts under house bulbs?

 

[-EJ]

Thank you for the hearty laugh... can you say Vegan? What's really ironic is that a popular tortoise guru is a vegan.

House bulbs... been there done that. I guess you haven't read the whole thread.

Look around for threads in the box turtle section. We have had several new members come with deformed box turtles "tortoises" to be identified, and many so deformed its hard to look at them. All are from a combination of improper supplementation of Ca and no UVB.

To defend the fact that diurnal animals can live WITHOUT a replica of the sun is ludicrous to me. Can carnivores live without protein and be fed soy? Humans metabolize it the same, but would wolves?

Personally, if defense of this argument is given, my next question would be if you would put your money where your mouth is, and put all your torts under house bulbs?

 

[Meg90]

Ed, your last posts seem to only serve the purposes of fueling another argument with me. If you'd like to say something, go ahead and send a pm. An email if you like. But your posts are continuously off topic, and that is against the rule. To post a reply only consisting of one non-contributional quip is against forum guidelines.

The left field comments and little digs are inappropriate as well. Vegan? Didn't read the whole thread? I have no idea where you are getting these ideas....

I said my piece.

If you want to keep your animals under incandescent lighting go right ahead.

But I will never believe that they are as healthy as animals with UVB lighting until I see professional, documented proof, comparable to what has been done in the MegaRay studies. That is not too much to ask.

To say, "my animals are fine, they are the proof" is not enough. Especially with tortoises. Of all the reptiles I keep, they are able to mask a problem the longest, as well as the easiest. They make no noise, they do not get aggressive when they feel sick, the show next to no outward signs of injury and illness. You tell me how a tortoise emotes anything other than hunger, and the desire for mating and territory. How to they express brittle bones, or porous shell?

 

[-EJ]

How so? How are my posts off topic?

If you think I'm attacking you personally... not so. I don't know you. I'm responding to your comments in your posts.

How I keep my animals should not be your concern.

Ed, your last posts seem to only serve the purposes of fueling another argument with me. If you'd like to say something, go ahead and send a pm. An email if you like. But your posts are continuously off topic, and that is against the rule. To post a reply only consisting of one non-contributional quip is against forum guidelines.

The left field comments and little digs are inappropriate as well. Vegan? Didn't read the whole thread? I have no idea where you are getting these ideas....

I said my piece.

If you want to keep your animals under incandescent lighting go right ahead.

But I will never believe that they are as healthy as animals with UVB lighting until I see professional, documented proof, comparable to what has been done in the MegaRay studies. That is not too much to ask.

To say, "my animals are fine, they are the proof" is not enough. Especially with tortoises. Of all the reptiles I keep, they are able to mask a problem the longest, as well as the easiest. They make no noise, they do not get aggressive when they feel sick, the show next to no outward signs of injury and illness. You tell me how a tortoise emotes anything other than hunger, and the desire for mating and territory. How to they express brittle bones, or porous shell?