I remember reading somewhere that torts slow down in winter, even if you still keep temp in enclosure pretty much the same. My 3 Cherry-head definitely slowed down a bit in terms of eating. Anybody else has the same observation?
Winter Eating: Slows Down?
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I am new to owning RFs, but my two have increased their eating and roaming....they are not a brumating species....you may want to check your temps and humidity.....
However, if they were wild they may be use to the weather changes at different times of the year even simply to slow but not brumate.....hmmm, others here have TONS more hands on experience than I do...so wait a bit to see what the others offer....
However, if they were wild they may be use to the weather changes at different times of the year even simply to slow but not brumate.....hmmm, others here have TONS more hands on experience than I do...so wait a bit to see what the others offer....
Emrys (Hermann's) has certainly slowed down eating. His activity levels haven't changed and he still roams as much as he did in warmer weather, but he tends to have one smaller meal a day now with a lot more food left over. In late summer, he'd be eating as soon as I put the food down and then going back to it multiple times after a walk around his table.
I'm a firm believer that even light coming in through a window across the room as days get shorter is enough to affect the seasonal activity levels of tortoises. I notice the same thing with tortoises kept indoors. It may have something to do with seasonal changes in air pressure also, which would be hard to avoid even if you didn't have light coming in through a window. Nighttime temps are almost always lower in the winter also, even if you keep daytime temps the same (our house is around 68-70 at night in the winter, and more like 78-79 in the summer at night).
In a week in the winter, I use as much food for tortoises as I do in a day in the summer. I enjoy the workload and financial 3 month vacation when temps cool off here!
In a week in the winter, I use as much food for tortoises as I do in a day in the summer. I enjoy the workload and financial 3 month vacation when temps cool off here!
TylerStewart said:
^^I really agree with Tyler's post. My Russians insisted on trying to brumate by the time late October/early November rolled around, even though they were indoor torts and temperatures were close to the same. Like Tyler, I attribute this to shortening day length, and possibly subtle changes in temperature, humidity, and/or barometric pressure.
My torts tried to brumate at room temperature, which is not healthy (they would lose too much weight that way), so I am letting them brumate now in a mini-fridge. I will likely let them brumate for 4 months (from early November to early March).
Cherry-headed Red-footed Tortoises come from the southeastern parts of Brazil, and experience more climate and seasonal change than their more northerly cousins. MANY keepers have remarked that even in a windowless room, their guys eat less and are less active in the winter.
This may be related to things like rainy seasons, barometric pressures, temps, light cycles, etc. This species does nor brumate (and bonus points for saying that instead of hibernate) but slowing down a bit is not the same thing. It is not even the same as aestivating, which they often do in the hot, dry weather.
This may be related to things like rainy seasons, barometric pressures, temps, light cycles, etc. This species does nor brumate (and bonus points for saying that instead of hibernate) but slowing down a bit is not the same thing. It is not even the same as aestivating, which they often do in the hot, dry weather.
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If an enclosure is well lit with a full spectrum light that illuminates the entire enclosure and has a light or other heat source from above that provides correct basking temperatures, as well as the enclosure having a correct overall ambient temperature range (as well as correct humidity range), a temperature climate tortoise will not be influenced by outside sources. My tortoises indoors, have a south facing window that lights shines through into the room. Yet not one of them has ever attempted to brumate indoors as a result of this exposure to the light through the window. Why? because they are not influenced by it. When the lights come one, which in the fall is before the sun comes up outdoors, each enclosure is entirely, brightly lit by a flourescent UVB bulb and a basking light at one end for 14 hours a day. The night time temperature is approximately 65 degrees each night, (although I would prefer a bit cooler). After an hour or so of the lights being on the ambient room temperature is up to about 72 degrees. Eventually the temperatures will rise up to 84 degrees in the room if I don't regulate it. I try to maintain an ambient temperature range of 76-80 degrees, sometime it gets a bit warmer, up to 82, sometimes it stay a bit cooler. Almost immediately upon the lights coming on nearly all of the tortoises of all ages and species begin to come out to bask. After nearly 30 years of keeping Northern species of tortoises (and others) in these same conditions, not one has ever stopped eating, become inactive or attempted to brumate indoors under these conditions.GeoTerraTestudo said:
In an indoor captive situation, if a tortoise is mistaken to be attempting to brumate it can be for a number reasons. First and foremost is that light intensity is not strong enough. the new style, "one lamp does it " Mercury Vapor fixtures work well for what they are intended which is to provide UVB rays and light. But they are not intense enough to fully, intensely illuminate an entire enclosure. They beam of light is very restricted, causing much of the enclosure to be darker than it should be for normal activity.
Secondly, it may be that temperatures are not correct. More often than not, Russian and northern Mediterranean species are often kept much to hot overall. Typically, night time temperatures are much warmer than they should be as well day time temperatures also sometimes being to warm. This overal warmth without a considerable day to night time differential can cause a temperature climate tortoise to go into aestivation or extended rest periods to wait out the constant heat. In captivity this is often mistaken for brumation (hibernation). Brumation takes place only when temperatures and light duration and intensity are reduced. Not just one or the other. Reduced light but active level temperatures will not cause a tortoise to brumate, but it will cause one to aestivate. Over intense light will also cause a tortoise be less active in that it will spend more time in hiding because to a tortoise, intense light accompanies hotter temperatures. Tortoises in this situation will often come out very early at first light, bask briefly, eat and go back into hiding before the percieved intense heat gets to them. But generally, the heat is what moves them at that point, not so much the light. But in general both heat and light must be present at the correct levels together to maintain normal activity. Lower levels of both will cause a tortoise to lean toward brumation. Higher levels of both will cause a tortoise to lean toward aestivation.
Under a correctly controlled environment such as an indoor situation outside light or temperatures will not influence a tortoises behavior. The only thing that might, that we do not measure in captivity might be barometric pressure. But there has never been any evidence or indication that even this is true.
Some important points need to be remembered when speaking about Russian tortoises specifically and in some cases, Mediterranean species too:
First, Russian tortoises are undisputably a burrowing species. Unlike any of their Testudo relatives. Yet, most literature and care information takes that into account. The action of burrowing is their form of survival whether it be from weather conditions or predators. Keeping in mind that almost all current Russian tortoises being referred to on this site are recently wild caught animals. Whether it be within the past few months or a year ago. That's still "recent" in the life of a tortoise. That burrowing instinct is still very strong. Few completely lose that instinct although it diminishes greatly in some individuals over time.
Secondly, Russian tortoises do not begin to prepare for brumation nearly as late as many of us would like to believe. In the wild and in outdoor captive situations, they actually begin to prepare themselves long before we percieve colder temperatures and shorter days. In the wild and in most areas of the mid to northern U.S. Russian tortoises begin to prepare themselves in early to mid August. Usually long before we think they do.
I believe the biggest problem with maintaining Russian tortoises in captivity is the fact that their actions, activity periods and probably their care, are much different than any other tortoise in captivity. As a whole many of us that keep Russian tortoises have failed to recognize and provide for those differences.
I believe it's also unfortunate that Russin tortoises, because of their plentiful numbers in the wild, have become the pet shop staple nowadays. Because of their not yet completely understood care requirements, I no longer believe that they are an ideal choice for new keepers. Fortunately for them, they seem to have an outstanding characteristic of being tough, durable and forgiving in less than ideal environmental conditions. Absolutely a credit to the evolution of their species.
Pond_Lilly said:
I have noticed that with Wilbur.
GB, many of us cannot afford to greatly alter the indoor environment. We are happy to provide space, substrate, heat, and light, but when winter rolls around, if that's not enough, then it's time to brumate. That's actually why I got a Testudo species (Russians), instead of a tropical species up here; brumation is an adaptation that allows them to deal with the reduced light, heat, and humidity of wintertime.
Again, when I kept box turtles, overwintering never seemed to be a problem. They may have slowed down a bit, but not much, and they kept right on feeding and remaining active. I had assumed the same would apply to Russian tortoises. Apparently not, but that's okay, because they can still brumate.
Again, when I kept box turtles, overwintering never seemed to be a problem. They may have slowed down a bit, but not much, and they kept right on feeding and remaining active. I had assumed the same would apply to Russian tortoises. Apparently not, but that's okay, because they can still brumate.
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Geo-Nothing is being greatly altered or unaffordable. It amounts to two light fixtures and lamps to go in them. You are correct: "Brumation is an adaptation taht allows them to deal with the reduced light, heat and humidity of wintertime". My point exactly-in order for a tortoise to actually go into brumation light (duration and intensity) and heat both need to be reduced for the tortoise to begin this action. Not just one or the other. Too many people are telling new owners that their tortoises are trying to hibernate (brumate) indoors just because it is winter weather outdoors. That is only true if indoor heat and light conditions are reduced as they would be outdoors. Reduced humidity has little to nothing to do with it either.
Russian tortoises, box turtles and any other species that would normally brumate in the wild, if kept indoors and at normal activity temperatures, light duration and intensity do not brumate. Based on most enclosures that I've seen and from what people are describing is that the light intensity is missing in their indoor enclosures. Because it happens to be fall and a Russian tortoise buries itself indoors, when the temperatures and light are at normal activity levels, it shouldn't be assumed that it is beginning brumation, because it isn't and people shouldn't be told that it is.
Russian tortoises, box turtles and any other species that would normally brumate in the wild, if kept indoors and at normal activity temperatures, light duration and intensity do not brumate. Based on most enclosures that I've seen and from what people are describing is that the light intensity is missing in their indoor enclosures. Because it happens to be fall and a Russian tortoise buries itself indoors, when the temperatures and light are at normal activity levels, it shouldn't be assumed that it is beginning brumation, because it isn't and people shouldn't be told that it is.
GBtortoises said:
I think this is debatable. As I've said, my indoor tortoises have not experienced a great reduction in temperature: a bit warmer inside during summer, a bit cooler during winter. The big difference is a drop in humidity here, and the shortening day length. I think that, in order to trick my Russian tortoises into thinking it's still summer, I would have to buy a whole bunch more fluorescent lights, a humidifier, and crank up the heat in my home. All of this takes money that I'm not willing to spend.
I noticed that in August, my Russian tortoises were already starting to wind down (as you commented on above). They were still active and feeding (I still put them outdoors quite a bit), but not as much as they did from May to July. Temperatures were still pretty high, humidity was still "summery," so that basically leaves decreasing day length. Come September they hardly came out. In early October they had a bit of a spike (just as they would in Central Asia), but by late October, they were trying to brumate in their pens. That is why, starting in early November, I put them in the fridge.
Shortening day length was probably the main thing that prompted them to prepare for brumation. My indoor set-up is two pens (one for each tortoise), each with its own CHE, and a single strip fluorescent light over both. If this is not enough to keep them awake and they need to brumate, then that is okay.
I recently went into a local specialty pet store, where they had two Russian tortoises in an enclosure with two box turtles. The box turtles were awake (again, that was my experience, too), but to my surprise, so were the Russians. I think this is because there was lots of light, heat, and humidity in that store, but I cannot afford to spend that much money on materials and energy to mimic summer conditions in my home. I think brumation will do fine. Once we get a backyard, they will be brumating out there anyway.
I have got something completely different, even if my baby sulcata is in winter weather or summer, or anything like that, he has always eaten ridiculous amounts of food (well, normal amounts for them), and he always has. Ted's activity levels stay roughly the same, if anything in winter he is MORE active for me, when its summer he loves to just lay out in the sun
GB- I fully agree that RTs are not a beginner species, with the possible exception of someone who can leave them outdoors all the time and allow them to naturally brumate (assuming the right soil type, climate, etc.)- but then, you'd have to be a rather advanced keeper to know that, would't you?
As for the 'slow down' of RF's- I firmly think this depends on a lot of things. Cherry's seem more prone to it than non-cherry's, and I firmly believe that our indoor climates play a HUGE role. Is your tort's habitat VERY warm and humid with long days? Then it is probably their equivalent of the rainy season. Struggling to keep the temps and humidity high in your cool, dry house? Then it may more closely resemble the dry season to them and they slow down since there is supposed to be less food.
I am working on a theory that torts NEED or at least benefit from seasonality- variations of temps, humidity, and especially diet to grow as healthy as they can. It seems as if a 'slow growth' period with less food plays a role in preventing pyramiding, etc.
As for the 'slow down' of RF's- I firmly think this depends on a lot of things. Cherry's seem more prone to it than non-cherry's, and I firmly believe that our indoor climates play a HUGE role. Is your tort's habitat VERY warm and humid with long days? Then it is probably their equivalent of the rainy season. Struggling to keep the temps and humidity high in your cool, dry house? Then it may more closely resemble the dry season to them and they slow down since there is supposed to be less food.
I am working on a theory that torts NEED or at least benefit from seasonality- variations of temps, humidity, and especially diet to grow as healthy as they can. It seems as if a 'slow growth' period with less food plays a role in preventing pyramiding, etc.
I suspect it may vary from one idividual to the next...of my four, Ptolemy and Ophelia are really pig-out minded lately, Apollonia is eating perhaps 1/3 less than the amount she ordinarily eats, and Jennifer shows no change. Whether this is due to their winter diet (no fresh weeds, only thawed frozen or dried weeds, mixed w/ Red Stick, alternated w/ cactus pads and grocery greens/spring mix), I've no idea, but it might have some bearing.
Their enclosure in in our dining room, where the window is covered, so little or no outside light gets in, and their artificial light schedule is the same as sumer (lights on about 6:30am, off about 8:45), temps are normal, humidity is appprox. 45-50%.
OTOH, of my daughter's three Ornate box turtles, one has a considerable reduced appetite, eating only every 2nd or 3rd day, while the other two are eating somewhat less (probably 60% of a summertime feeding), but feeding daily. Their diet is pretty similar to summer feets (chopped veggies, worms and soaked dog kibble, with occasional fruit).
None have stopped eating entirely and all get soaked every 3 days.
Their enclosure in in our dining room, where the window is covered, so little or no outside light gets in, and their artificial light schedule is the same as sumer (lights on about 6:30am, off about 8:45), temps are normal, humidity is appprox. 45-50%.
OTOH, of my daughter's three Ornate box turtles, one has a considerable reduced appetite, eating only every 2nd or 3rd day, while the other two are eating somewhat less (probably 60% of a summertime feeding), but feeding daily. Their diet is pretty similar to summer feets (chopped veggies, worms and soaked dog kibble, with occasional fruit).
None have stopped eating entirely and all get soaked every 3 days.
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