Winterhousing - Belgium + pics. Advice welcome

[Guzzio]

Hey guys. First, excuse my for my bad English, 'cause i am from Belgium. So here goes ...

So i am building a winter enclosure for my 1,5 years old Sulcata.

In Belgium, winters can be cold.

As long as its possible, the little Sulcata (311 gr - 0.68 pound) will stay indoors during winter. But i started building a good insulated housing so he can stay outside as long as possible.

The 'box' is 3 meters long and 1 meter wide. The bottom is insulated with 5 cm isulation like used for buidling houses and so ... also the side panels have 5 cm insulation.

Also the ceiling is insulated with 4 panels (5 cm thick insulation) that can easely can be removed for cleaning purposes.

Everything inside is made water proof with multiple layers of varnis.

In the floor, i added floor heating. This is controlled by a digital proportional thermostat.

I made a double entrance with a hatch to keep wind and cold out. I also mounted a window into the frame, double layered with thermas insulation.

Then there is a daylight bulb with uvb spectrum 100 watt: Arcadia D3.
During the night, i use a ceramic heater, also 100 watt.

Question: Daytime temp 40° or around 100 F can be acheived with ease. At night, i noticed that the ceramic heat emitter has a hard time holding temps around 20° or 68 F. While an infrared lamp heats up the enclosure faster and hold temp much easier.

So i want to use the infrared lamp, but i read somewhere that an infrared lamp can couwe blindness???

I am planning to buy a heating mat, just te be safe ...

True or not? Any advice welcome.

More pics will follow.

PICS:

Frame outside



Frame inside + floor insulation

Frame inside

Floor heating

Light bulbs

Proportional thermostat + dimming functuion + timer

Ceiling panels

Window

Ceramic heater -

Infrared heater - NO GOOD??? BLINDNESS???

Good heating mat?

 

[Yvonne G]

It's hard to tell, but it looks like the heat/lights may be too close to the top of the tortoise's back. You may not realize it, but they burn quite easily (tortoises' shells).

I like your design. You've done a nice job.

 

[Tom]

Heat lamps are okay for smaller sulcatas, but I would not use them on any tortoise larger than about 25-30cm. When used on tortoises larger than that, the carapace "slow-burning" that Yvonne mentioned is common.

I wouldn't use infra red or any colored bulbs over tortoises at any time. It does;t caused blindness, but it makes the tortoise's whole world look red. They need it to look like normal white light in the daytime and they need it dark at night. If your CHE is not keeping things warm enough, add another one, or add a radiant heat panel.

68 is way too cold at night for this tropical species, especially if you are using the higher humidity levels that you should be using. 68 (20C) is is fine for temperate Testudo species, but not sulcatas. Sulcatas should not drop below 26-27C at any time. Take a look at this:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/baytril-for-sick-sulcatas.162353/
We just had a couple of threads arguing this point with a new member who thought cold night temps in a cold clammy beach climate was fine for this species. He was arguing about what temps should be based on his "research" of what he thought wild temps were, while ignoring the advice of people who have been keeping this spices for decades here in North America. Then the new member was actually in the part of Africa where sulcatas occur for work, and he related daytime temps that were exactly as I said they were, and tried to tell us burrow temps were 68F, which is exceedingly low given the daytime highs and night time lows in that tropical area. Doesn't seem likely or possible based on my experience with similar temps here in my own burrows in summer time with daytime highs and nighttime lows matching the "winter" temps over there. In any case, 26-27C at night works for this species and keeps them healthy. Lower than that is risking respiratory infection. Daytime ambient temps should creep up to 32-33C with a basking area near 36-37C directly under the basking bulbs.

 

[Guzzio]

Hey Tom, hey Yvonne. Thanks for the tips. I appreciate this!!! So i will set the thermostat so that temp at night will be 26 -27C and daytemp will be adjusted to 32 - 33C.

I think i will remove the ceramic heat emitter and use the heat mat instead. I ordered one and it will fit nicely ...

As for the daytime UVB bulb, i will check if it's not to low. I can move it up a little higher so the little one does not get burned.

Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Hey Tom, hey Yvonne. Thanks for the tips. I appreciate this!!! So i will set the thermostat so that temp at night will be 26 -27C and daytemp will be adjusted to 32 - 33C.

I think i will remove the ceramic heat emitter and use the heat mat instead. I ordered one and it will fit nicely ...

As for the daytime UVB bulb, i will check if it's not to low. I can move it up a little higher so the little one does not get burned.

Thanks!

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Maro2Bear]

In addition to all the great info provided, you could try using a larger wattage CHE. I see you are using a 100 watt now, you could bump that up to 150 or higher. Or, install a second CHE on the opposite side of the enclosure.

• Like @Yvonne G already stated, be careful with the height of your overhead lights/heaters. You still need to add a few inches of substrate in your enclosure which will bring young sully a bit too close ( maybe).

 

[Speedy-1]

I used a small radiant heat panel when I set up my Ackie enclosure . I really like them and will be putting one in my Sully's night box this summer , to replace the heater I have in there now ! It looks like this ;

 

[Guzzio]

Thanks for all the tips!

Well ... it's almost finished. Just a few adjustments to do ...
- I will place the light a bit higher to avoid burning spots.
- I will replace the ceramic heat emitter; i have bought a large heating mat.

I did a little test run last night and temps outside where around freezing point. With 1 infrared 100 watt bulb, temps where like 82 F the whole night. Thanks to the proportional dimming thermostat, i could see the heating bulb dimming from time to time and then burn a bit brighter. So not like on / of all the time.

I will do another test run this night with the heating mat mounted vertical to one side. I will connect the heating mat with the proportional dimming thermostat and i hope i can achieve daytime temps around 96 F and nighttime temps around 82 F.

Curious about the results, as the heating mat consumes only 40 watt ...

 

[Guzzio]

Ok. Time for a post of our little one. This is 'Lou' (like Lou ferrigno aka the hulk ) and my fathers Sulcata 'Georges'.

 

[Big Charlie]

Thanks for all the tips!

Well ... it's almost finished. Just a few adjustments to do ...
- I will place the light a bit higher to avoid burning spots.
- I will replace the ceramic heat emitter; i have bought a large heating mat.

I did a little test run last night and temps outside where around freezing point. With 1 infrared 100 watt bulb, temps where like 82 F the whole night. Thanks to the proportional dimming thermostat, i could see the heating bulb dimming from time to time and then burn a bit brighter. So not like on / of all the time.

I will do another test run this night with the heating mat mounted vertical to one side. I will connect the heating mat with the proportional dimming thermostat and i hope i can achieve daytime temps around 96 F and nighttime temps around 82 F.

Curious about the results, as the heating mat consumes only 40 watt ...

You shouldn't be using the red bulb. At night, it should be dark. How big is that heat mat? For my sulcata's night box, I use one of these on the ceiling:
http://www.reptilebasics.com/80-watt-radiant-heat-panel

and this on the floor: https://www.kanemfg.com/product/poly-pet-heat-mat/ I have the 27 x 48 size. Both are plugged into my thermostat.

 

[Guzzio]

Hmmm ... thanks. So the red bulb will go out. I will test run it tomorrow with an 18 x 18 feet heat mat possitioned to one side. This winter, Lou wil stay indoors. And probably next winter to ... but i love to build things like this, so i want him to stay outside as long is he is up to. But i will certainly bring him in when temps are getting too low. Thanks again for the tips. Here in Belgium there is not a lot Sulcata info to find.

 

[Big Charlie]

You're welcome. You shouldn't be using a red bulb indoors either. We can help with your indoor enclosure too. Lou needs lots of heat and humidity.

I didn't move Charlie outdoors full time until he was 5 years old. Bigger sulcatas can handle temperature variations more because it takes longer for the cold to reach their inner core.

 

[Tom]

A tortoise that size shouldn't be under bulbs or CHEs. They tend to slow-burn the carapace. Put the heat mat on the floor so he can lay on it. Those are not designed to throw heat and they don't work well mounted on walls that way. They are meant to be laid on. A radiant heat panel over head will give you darkness, they won't burn out all the time like any incandescent bulb will, and they spread the heat out over a greater area.

 

[Guzzio]

Hmmm ... i will do some 'googling' to find and buy/order such a heat radiant panel. Any idea how much watt such a heat panel is?

 

[Tom]

Hmmm ... i will do some 'googling' to find and buy/order such a heat radiant panel. Any idea how much watt such a heat panel is?

They make different sizes. I use the 12x21" 78 watt ones, but you will need to decide which size works best for your application.

 

[Speedy-1]

I used the smallest , 28 watts . But it is a much smaller enclosure ! I ran it through a rheostat so I could adjust the temps until I was sure it wouldn't get too warm ! You can see a lot of what you are looking for here ;

http://www.lllreptile.com/catalog/16-heat-pads-heat-panels-heat-cable-and-rocks

 

[Guzzio]

Thanks again guys. I am grateful and i really appreciate all the info here.

In Belgium, i can find a lot of info about Greek tortoises (i have 2), but barely about Sulcata's. So i am satisfied i have found this forum. I did a test run last night and outside temps were around 26 F, so freezing ... The roof of the enclosure was covered with about 5 inch snow.

I wanted to find out how warm the enclosure would be, only running the heat mat as shown in the picture in my previous post. I ran the heat mat with no thermostat and it was 82,4 F in 1/3 of the enclosure and the coldest corner it was around 75 F.

The heat mat was mounted vertical.

I am pleasantly surprised and only consumes 40 watt!

I would add another heat source as 'back-up', but i am not sure what kind of heat source to choose. Think i will go for a small heat panel just in case ...

 

[wellington]

A tortoise that size shouldn't be under bulbs or CHEs. They tend to slow-burn the carapace. Put the heat mat on the floor so he can lay on it. Those are not designed to throw heat and they don't work well mounted on walls that way. They are meant to be laid on. A radiant heat panel over head will give you darkness, they won't burn out all the time like any incandescent bulb will, and they spread the heat out over a greater area.

Tom, many threads/post say to not put the heat matts on the floor as a tortoise could burn itself staying on it too long as their carapace is not being heated. Can you clarify this please. I have mine mounted on the side walls.

 

[Tom]

Tom, many threads/post say to not put the heat matts on the floor as a tortoise could burn itself staying on it too long as their carapace is not being heated. Can you clarify this please. I have mine mounted on the side walls.

Those heat mats are designed to have animals lay upon them. They were originally called "farrowing pads" and they were developed for piglets being born in colder climates. The momma pig with her hard hooves and heavy body would walk and then lay on the pad and the little piglets could lay on the warm surface while nursing in a colder climate. And of course being pigs, the enclosures and mats would have to be hosed off and cleaned regularly. This info is all directly from Craig Kane, of Kane Heat Mats.

These pads are not designed to project heat outward, so they are not a good choice for a ceiling or wall mount. A radiant heat panel which is meant to project heat is a much better choice for that. A main problem with an outdoor tortoise shelter in a temperate climate is that the ground is cold and this will suck the heat right out of a large tortoise. Even in a box where the air is heated, the floor often remains cold. If warm heated air can circulate and touch the surface of the floor, your temp gun might tell you the floor is warm there, but try this: Place a couple of thick books on a spot on your floor for a few hours on a cold night and then lift the books and check the temp under them with a temp gun. Unless the enclosure is very well insulated (Some are and some aren't…) the temp under you books will be much cooler than the air temp. Same thing can happen when a tortoise is blocking the airflow, just like the books. These heat mats prevent that and help warm the tortoise from underneath.

These heat mats now have redundant safeties built in to prevent overheating, and when controlled with a reptile thermostat, they are turned on and off as needed, depending on the temperature.

Further, decades of use under tortoises in large outdoor shelters, have proven them to be safe and good for use directly under the tortoises. I have seen a couple of cases of pads overheating from years past with older model pads, but all of Kane's newer pads have kill switch safeties embedded directly into the pads. I don't know if the ZooMed copies or other brands have these built in safeties, but judging from the price, they might not.

To reiterate, I use Kane mats exclusively, I have never had an issue in more than a decade of use, and my info comes directly from the mouth of the company owner in a phone conversation. I can't vouch for the safety of other mats that I haven't used and haven't talked to the company owners about. Tyler at http://www.tortoisesupply.com sells Kane mats of all sizes.

 

[wellington]

Those heat mats are designed to have animals lay upon them. They were originally called "farrowing pads" and they were developed for piglets being born in colder climates. The momma pig with her hard hooves and heavy body would walk and then lay on the pad and the little piglets could lay on the warm surface while nursing in a colder climate. And of course being pigs, the enclosures and mats would have to be hosed off and cleaned regularly. This info is all directly from Craig Kane, of Kane Heat Mats.

These pads are not designed to project heat outward, so they are not a good choice for a ceiling or wall mount. A radiant heat panel which is meant to project heat is a much better choice for that. A main problem with an outdoor tortoise shelter in a temperate climate is that the ground is cold and this will suck the heat right out of a large tortoise. Even in a box where the air is heated, the floor often remains cold. If warm heated air can circulate and touch the surface of the floor, your temp gun might tell you the floor is warm there, but try this: Place a couple of thick books on a spot on your floor for a few hours on a cold night and then lift the books and check the temp under them with a temp gun. Unless the enclosure is very well insulated (Some are and some aren't…) the temp under you books will be much cooler than the air temp. Same thing can happen when a tortoise is blocking the airflow, just like the books. These heat mats prevent that and help warm the tortoise from underneath.

These heat mats now have redundant safeties built in to prevent overheating, and when controlled with a reptile thermostat, they are turned on and off as needed, depending on the temperature.

Further, decades of use under tortoises in large outdoor shelters, have proven them to be safe and good for use directly under the tortoises. I have seen a couple of cases of pads overheating from years past with older model pads, but all of Kane's newer pads have kill switch safeties embedded directly into the pads. I don't know if the ZooMed copies or other brands have these built in safeties, but judging from the price, they might not.

To reiterate, I use Kane mats exclusively, I have never had an issue in more than a decade of use, and my info comes directly from the mouth of the company owner in a phone conversation. I can't vouch for the safety of other mats that I haven't used and haven't talked to the company owners about. Tyler at http://www.tortoisesupply.com sells Kane mats of all sizes.

Thanks Tom, more then I needed, but that's can't okay. I do have a couple from Tyler. I just always read for people to not let torts lay on the heat mat.
How do you attach the thermostat probe to it? For mine attached to a side wall, I have the probe hanging in front of it towards top so torts can't bother it. To place mat so tort can lay on it, how is the probe attached and where is it placed?