Worried And Need Advice About My New Tort...He's Not Acting Right

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TebowHammer

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Hi guys,

First post...and I wish it was under better circumstances. This post is going to be as detailed as possible.

I got Tebow 9 days ago from Turtle Shack. It's amazing how deeply and quickly I've become attached to the little guy (I've always had a fascination with turtles).

But I'm honestly worried about him. Here's why...

Since I've gotten him, he's been very lethargic. But here's the kicker...he's lethargic when he's inside, but when he goes outside, he livens up ALOT.

I originally had a dual deep dome light fixture by Zoo Med. It had a basking lamp and a 5% UVB coil bulb in it hanging about 12" from the substrate.

I've since changed it to a 10% UVB coil bulb in a separate fixture. The new bulb sits about 8 inches from the substrate, and it's pointed in the same spot that the basking bulb is placed in.

His table was hand made by me out of wood. It's all wood purchased from Home Depot. The substrate is 50% coconut coir and 50% top soil. It's 4 ft in length and 2 ft in width. It's also 10" deep.

I have a hide box, a water hole, and various "approved" plants in his pen. The plants have been washed and replanted in their own soil. Just put them in today and he hasn't eaten any of them.

Matter of fact, he doesn't eat much at all. But more on that in a sec.

I keep the substrate damp 24/7. Not too wet where it's dripping but damp enough to where it will stick together when you mash it.

Now...for Tebow's activity...or lack there-of.

Inside the home, Tebow is lethargic. He really doesn't move at all and he sleeps almost all day. He stays under his basking lamp for most of the day (basking temp is 95 degrees and coolest part of table is about 70 degrees). When he does move out from under it, he only moves about 7-8 inches away.

Almost every morning when I come into the room to turn his lights back on, he hasn't moved an inch from where he was at the night before.

He hardly every opens his eyes. Matter-of-fact, he only does it on three occasions. 1. When he goes outside. 2. When he gets his daily soaking. 3. When I pick him up (actually it's few and far between that he opens his eyes when I pick him up...but he does do it occasionally).

Also, it looks like he's rubbing his eyes (or at least trying to) with his front legs off-and-on throughout the day and night. However, his eyes don't look swollen.

Sometimes when I bask him, he'll open one eye but it can take a few seconds before the other one opens.

He squirms on a regular basis. He's also responsive to touch.

I've only seen him eat on 4 different occasions. Three times when he's outside, and once when my fiance gave him some collard greens in the basking area in his pen.

He does not have an appetite at all...not even when I put the food right in front of him. I make sure to give him about a 1/4 cup of grass and greens daily, but he doesn't eat them. They all end up getting thrown in the trash.

His shell isn't any softer and I see no visual signs of sickness (aka bubbles coming from nose, rasping when breathing, etc)

He really just looks like a very lazy turtle...but I know that's not the case. It's just the best way I know how to describe him.

Now for the kicker...

Whenever Tebow goes outside, he energizes up almost instantly. He walks around like crazy, munches on some grass and weeds, and has both eyes open. It's like nothing was ever wrong with him.

He also livens up when I give him a soak (just not quite as much as outside). He'll start walking around the container and I've actually seen him drink some water, too.

It's just weird and I don't understand it...what could be causing these huge differences in behavior?

I've had others from another group suggest getting a T-Rex or a Zoo Med Powersun bulb. I have one ordered and on the way now. They tend to think it has something to do with the lighting.

Really, I don't know what else it could be.

I do have a wood table, and I heard that certain types of wood are toxic to Sulcatas. But Tebow never comes in contact with it unless he has his face up against it while he's sleeping in the corner.

I would love to hear any suggestions about what to do, what it could be, and any other information or advice you can share...

I really love the guy to death, and I want to get this figured out ASAP.

Thanks for everything!

Sincerely,

Tyler
 

jensgotfaith

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I think I could be the coil bulb. And it could be that he's still adjusting. How old is Tebow?
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Tyler:

And yet another story proving that the coil bulbs cause eye problems! (and lethargy)

Get rid of that coil bulb ASAP! and use either an MVB (mercury vapor bulb) or even a plain old incandescent bulb for heat.

Welcome to the forum!! May we know where you are?
 

ekm5015

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I have two suggestions that may help:

1) Bump up the temps. Keep the entire enclosure above 80 degrees. Basking spot about 100. If you do not have a lid for the enclosure you could get a 4'x2' piece of plexiglass. It will help keep heat and humidity in the enclosure.

2) Get a Mercury Vapor Bulb instead of the coil. Tortoises need uvb to grow a strong shell, but they also need plenty of uva. uva affects a tortoises activity and eating habits. When the you put Tebow outside he was in the sun recieving tons of uva rays which increased his activity level.

3) Get fecal checked for parasites. Parasites or worms can steal nutrition and make a tort very lathargic.
 

Torty Mom

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I would do what Yvonne suggested and remove the coil bulb right now!! Just use a regular bulb NON coil for warmth until the MVB comes in. Do you have any plain bulbs? I keep extras on hand just for emergencies. How much sun is he getting daily? Make sure he stays warm. Is he a hatchling?
 

Laura

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If out of the enclosure he is fine... then something is wrong inside...
Coil bulbs have a real bad reputation.. turn it off asap..
I have no idea why they sell them anymore.
keep us posted on how he does.
 

TebowHammer

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Thank you all for the helpful and quick responses! I really REALLY appreciate it!!

Consider the coil bulb gone! I've got another bulb that I can use for the time being for additional warmth.

Yes, Mary Ann, he's still a hatchling. Don't know exactly how old he is, but he's about 3 inches. Haven't taken an actual measurement yet.

I really hope this is what it is...

Here's a question though...if it is the coil bulb that has been causing the eye problems, will his eyes eventually get better on their own? He still opens them up when outside and when soaking.

What temps do you recommend for hatchlings?

Thanks again for all your advice!

Sincerely,

Tyler


P.S. Oh...almost forgot, I'm from Georgia, Yvonne. Southern part.
 

Torty Mom

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Hey Tyler, here is a link to Tom's care sheet of raising hatchlings. This is how I keep my hatchlings, I have 3 CDT's. I use coconut coir for my substate, it holds in the moisture and it's nice and warm under the lights. Mine love it, they dig little holes and snuggle right into it. Tom wrote an excellent guideline and I would have been lost without it!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies#axzz1FUbho0Gm

Hope that helps! Glad you took the bulb out those things are aweful!
 

pdrobber

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I agree with everyone about keeping him warmer. I didn't see you mention anything about providing heat in the indoor setup (in the form of a regular light bulb, basking bulb, MVB or CHE)

(Oh now I see you said you have a bulb you can use for some heat. Let us know if that changes things.)
 

tortoisenerd

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Good job ditching the coil bulb. If he opens his eyes when outside, you'd think he would open them right away when inside with the coil bulb gone.

Also check the bulb angle...if its pointing into his eyes, then ditching the coil bulb won't completely fix it. The bulb face should be parallel to the surface (like recessed lighting in a house). Use a reptile lamp stand so you can adjust the height as needed (unless you hang it with chain or something). If his eyes are still closed when taking away the coil bulb, I'd guess bulb angle.

I'd also ditch the plants, as washing and re-planting doesn't get rid of chemicals. Better safe than sorry, because nursery plants not meant to be eaten (vs. say conventionally grown lettuce at a grocery store) can be loaded with them.

It wouldn't be the table wood unless it was cedar (and even then, bizarre). It would be a substrate wood that could cause that...you'd have to be using pine and cedar, and even with those, the effects aren't immediate.

That said, it is normal for a hatchling to seem pretty lethargic (ie. sleeping or napping 20 hours a day). You do however want to see their eyes open, basking, eating, moving, etc, for a few hours a day. Hopefully we are on the right track here with the lighting. Enclosure photos? That is the easiest way to spot stuff. Best wishes.
 

TebowHammer

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Thank you Kate...

That is all great advice. I do actually have a couple of pics I took today of the table. Here they are:








The clamp lamp you see in the pic is what the coil UVB was in. It's not there anymore.


I'm looking into buying a ceramic heating element in order to get the temps up at the other end of the table. My question is how wide of a range does the heater cover?

The table area that Tebow actually stays in is 3 feet in length and 2 feet in width. Will one CHE cover it or would I need another?
 

jensgotfaith

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He does need a cool side, and you did mention you've got a MVB on order right? I'm not sure if you really would need a CHE then? But being that it's on the floor, it will be cooler down there in general than it would be up on a table. Maybe someone else can answer that one. What about another hide on the warm side?
 

coreyc

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jensgotfaith said:
He does need a cool side, and you did mention you've got a MVB on order right? I'm not sure if you really would need a CHE then? But being that it's on the floor, it will be cooler down there in general than it would be up on a table. Maybe someone else can answer that one. What about another hide on the warm side?

What is the temp at night after the lights are off ?
 

TebowHammer

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The temps at night get to around 70 degrees. Reading Tom's guide on hatchlings it states that you want to keep the "cool" side around 80 degrees.

coreyc said:
jensgotfaith said:
He does need a cool side, and you did mention you've got a MVB on order right? I'm not sure if you really would need a CHE then? But being that it's on the floor, it will be cooler down there in general than it would be up on a table. Maybe someone else can answer that one. What about another hide on the warm side?

What is the temp at night after the lights are off ?
 

Tom

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There are many ways to do these things and everyone does it a little differently depending on their situation. If you ask 10 different people, you'll likely get 10 different opinions. Since opinions are what you have asked for, here's mine:

I see you have two different problems.

Problem #1. The coil bulb. Sounds like you've already solved that one.
Problem #2. Temps. Whenever a reptile hangs out excessively in one spot, it should serve as notice that something is a little off. If they are "always" on the hot side, its too cool in there. If they are "always" on the cool side, its not warm enough. For babies I like to keep the whole enclosure around 80 day and night, all the time, and provide a "hot spot" of around 100 for basking 12-14 hours a day. You might need to mount a ceramic heating element over the whole enclosure and leave it on 24/7. Then just have your mercury vapor bulb on a timer for 12 hours over one side of the enclosure. Move the bulb up or down to get the basking temp right around 100. I also find it helpful to project the light straight down onto a flat rock or piece of slate for basking. 70 as an ambient temp is too cool for a baby, ESPECIALLY if there is any moisture present.

Your substrate is a good one as its designed to be kept damp. This will help increase humidity. The problems are #1, you lose all your humidity in an open topped enclosure like a tortoise table and #2, damp soil on wood will eventually lead to major problems with rot and leakage. Tort tables became all the rage 10 or 15 years ago and are still popular today. Much of what you find on the internet reflects this. I, however, find them totally unsuitable, for the above listed reasons. In fact, I prefer glass aquariums or plastic tubs for precisely all the reasons people say they are no good. "They hold in heat." That's great. I can use lower wattage bulbs and still maintain good temps. "They restrict air flow." Fantastic. It will hold in my much needed humidity. "Its stressful for them to see out and they will pace the glass all day." That has never been a problem for me in 32 years of keeping turtles and torts. I like to be able to see them and for them to be able to see me.

It looks like you have a closed in area over on the left of the cage. That is good. Check the humidity level in there and try to keep it in the 90+% range and it will serve as a humid hide box for you. I'd also swap out that water bowl and replace it with a wider, shallow, terra cotta plant saucer from the hardware store.

Finally, get a weight on your baby. They are hatched around 32-35 grams and 2" long. If yours is three inches and significantly heavier than that, you probably don't have any sort of congenital issue or early husbandry problem.
 

coreyc

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70 is to cold for a hatchling listen to Tom bump up your night temp let us know how he is doing:)
 

Tom

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Oh yeah, Hello and welcome to our forum. I hope you like it here. Its a great community made of of some really fantastic people. I hope we're able to help you and your tortoise.
 

TebowHammer

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Thanks for the advice!

I have a CHE ordered and on the way along with a T-Rex UV bulb.

So should I place the CHE in the middle of the pen? It's a 60 watt.

Thanks,

Tyler
 

Tom

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TebowHammer said:
Thanks for the advice!

I have a CHE ordered and on the way along with a T-Rex UV bulb.

So should I place the CHE in the middle of the pen? It's a 60 watt.

Thanks,

Tyler

Probably. That's a good spot if you are trying to warm up the whole enclosure. Measure your temps and move the fixture up or down to get them just right.
 
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