You can't beat the sun for UVB

[Yvonne G]

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/ajvr.73.11.1781

 

[N2TORTS]

So true .....and remember folks -Normal glass blocks all of UVB but allows UVA to come through....

 

[wellington]

Interesting, except I kinda think we all knew that and they waisted their time. Now, I wish they would have tested or shared the difference they found in the torts using the MVB to those using the fluorescents.
Also would have been nice to know how many days or hours of natural UVB it takes to get and keep the higher amount do D3

 

[mike taylor]

So I took that as Sun in way better for your torts. But we know that already . So the vitamin intake is lower so should we be using vitamin d3 . If we are keeping our torts inside under these lamps to increase the vitamin intake.

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[mikeh]

Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately the article does not mention brands and how the bulbs were used. Not all artificial UVB is equal.

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[wellington]

So I took that as Sun in way better for your torts. But we know that already . So the vitamin intake is lower so should we be using vitamin d3 . If we are keeping our torts inside under these lamps to increase the vitamin intake.

Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app

If your tort never sees the sun, then you should find a way to get him outside or you should be providing some D3. However, too much can be dangerous too. That's my opinion from trying to figure out the D3 two years ago. I don't give D3 or much calcium for that matter anymore. My torts get outside all summer long, have a varied diet and a cuttle bone available. Every tort should be getting some outside time in the warmer months. Even if it's on a balcony in a planted enclosure with shade and water for a half hour or more.

 

[jaizei]

Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately the article does not mention brands and how the bulbs were used. Not all artificial UVB is equal.

sent from mobile device using TFO app

Were you able to access the full text? It should provide more detailed information about the bulbs. The minute I spent looking for it ended only with the pay screen.

 

[mikeh]

Um...$30? No. From the abstract I dont get the impression multiple MVBs and florescent were tested.

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[Tom]

While I certainly agree with the title of this thread, more info about the study would be interesting. The thought that came to mind after reading the link was, "Well, no duh!"

It should be noted in relation to some of the above comments that to my knowledge, it is not known whether tortoises can even absorb dietary D3. I saw a study in the 90's that demonstrated that green iguanas cannot. I have not seen any evidence that convinces me that tortoises can utilize dietary D3, or that they can't. Just throwing that out there, since it seems pertinent to this discussion.

 

[ascott]

"Well, no duh!"

LMAO....This was exactly what I thought as well....lol

 

[N2TORTS]

Actually the sun is quite harmful!

 

[ascott]

Actually the sun is quite harmful!

JD, I know you must have some motive behind this statement Please take a moment to share/clarify ....so folks will not interpret this the wrong way...

 

[N2TORTS]

Actually the sun is quite harmful!

JD, I know you must have some motive behind this statement Please take a moment to share/clarify ....so folks will not interpret this the wrong way...

Sun rays can heal and destroy as there are many factors to consider when breaking down a “Sun’s Ray”.
Sunlight is known to kill microbes and to help the synthesis of vitamin D, but there are
the negative effects of the sunlight induced by the ultraviolet (UV) light. Overexposure to UV radiation can lead to serious health effects that we see in humans and I would assume would apply to most living creatures. Some of the negative effects we see are skin cancer, cataracts, immune suppression and dehydration ( which causes a huge snowball of effects).
It is also worth knowing that over exposure to UV at certain levels destroys a part of a healthy and live tissue that is irreversible. Now don’t get me wrong ’We” all need sunlight … but you can just never synthesize sunlight to perfection indoors and if you do ( which technology had just exploded in the last few years) it really doesn’t promote the same results as the “ real deal” . Just look at indoor gardening. I’m a sun lover GOD …trust me and all my animals receive just about as close to their natural habitat as you could get. But I do safe guard with shaded areas and keep the grounds moist. Also , ozone layers are different around the country and world for that matter which greatly effects the subject we are talking about …..just things to consider and another side to look at of the suns rays . I’m all for it …..honest ~

 

[mike taylor]

Re: RE: You can't beat the sun for UVB

So I took that as Sun in way better for your torts. But we know that already . So the vitamin intake is lower so should we be using vitamin d3 . If we are keeping our torts inside under these lamps to increase the vitamin intake.

Sent from my C771 using TortForum mobile app

If your tort never sees the sun, then you should find a way to get him outside or you should be providing some D3. However, too much can be dangerous too. That's my opinion from trying to figure out the D3 two years ago. I don't give D3 or much calcium for that matter anymore. My torts get outside all summer long, have a varied diet and a cuttle bone available. Every tort should be getting some outside time in the warmer months. Even if it's on a balcony in a planted enclosure with shade and water for a half hour or more.

All my tortoise are outside but my hatchling sulcata . He goes out every day when I get home from work . The question I was asking is if your torts don't go outside and you have all the uvb/ uva lighting should you add more d3 to the diet ? Some keepers live up north where they keep inside enclosures going all year . So even if you have theses lights you need to add more vitamin to the diet.


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[Madkins007]

The research on UVB and vitamin D in tortoises is incomplete and confusing, but 'best practices' continues to seem to be: access to real sunlight. If not available, offer good quality UVB lighting. I agree with Tom that dietary D3 is iffy, although it MAY be better than nothing.

I found this article helpful-
Fergusion, Gary W. and . H.Gehrmann, T. C. Chen, E. S. Dierenfeld, M. F.Holick. "Effects of Artificial Ultraviolet Light on Reproductive Success of the Female Panther Chameleon (Furcifer pardalis) in Captivity" Zoo Biology 21:525-537, 2002. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/zoo.10054/abstract Unfortunately, the free version no longer seems to be available. In fact. a whole slew of great articles at the original Megaray site seem to be gone )

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Re: RE: You can't beat the sun for UVB

Interesting, except I kinda think we all knew that and they waisted their time. Now, I wish they would have tested or shared the difference they found in the torts using the MVB to those using the fluorescents.
Also would have been nice to know how many days or hours of natural UVB it takes to get and keep the higher amount do D3

Read it again, they did express the difference.

Will

---

There are many unknows, that may not even be revealed by reading the fill study, not just the abstract.

First and formost would be a chart that tells how much of the spectrum of interest was expressed outside during the period of time the study was run, how much was under the lamps, and most important, how many hours of exposure did the average tortoise in each group spend under the three light sources.

A quick pubmed search reveals these researchers have studied many aspects of blood chemistry in a few situations and species. You really need to read the whole body of their work to find the real meaning of this one article.

Conclusions made from the abstract alone will not be appropriate.

Will

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Am J Vet Res. 2006 Dec;67(12):2046-9.
Effects of ultraviolet radiation on 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 synthesis in red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans).
Acierno MJ, Mitchell MA, Roundtree MK, Zachariah TT.
Source
Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, LA 70810, USA.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To determine whether there are increased concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitaminn D(3) in red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans) after exposure to UV radiation.
ANIMALS:
12 yearling turtles recently removed from aestivation.
PROCEDURES:
Turtles were randomly allocated to 2 groups (6 turtles/group). An initial blood sample was collected from all turtles for measurement of 25-hydroxyvitamin D(3) concentrations. Turtles of 1 group were then provided no supplemental lighting, whereas turtles of the other group were exposed to full-spectrum coil bulbs at a distance of 22.86 cm. The UV-A and UV-B radiation generated by the supplemental lighting was measured by use of a radiometer-photometer at weekly intervals. Measurements were collected 2.54 and 22.86 cm from the bulb surface. The study was continued for a 4-week period. At the end of the study, a second blood sample was collected from all turtles for measurement of 25-hydroxyvitamin D(3).
RESULTS:
Mean +/- SD 25-hydroxyvitamin D(3) concentrations differed significantly between turtles provided supplemental UV radiation (71.7 +/- 46.9 nmol/L) and those not provided UV radiation (31.4 +/- 13.2 nmol/L).
CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:
Appropriate husbandry recommendations for raising and maintaining red-eared slider turtles should include use of sunlight that is unobstructed by UV-B filtering material or provision of an artificial source of UV-B radiation.

*****************************
So, just to further conflict what we all think we know, these guys used coil bulbs and showed the turtles' blood had an increase in the D3 compound.

Each further experiment will close in on the key variable that makes the last experiment less rigorous in the determinations of the authors. That's just how it works.

As an applied means of investigation, D3 supplementation does have an effect, less so many animals in so many cages around the world, that have never been exposed to any 'real' sun, would never have produced offspring. But that preponderance of evidence is anecdotal.

Not knowing the mechanism of the effect of D3 as a dietary supplement does not mean it does not work. It is a bit blind, but it does work.

Will

---

Abstract
American Journal of Veterinary Research
December 2006, Vol. 67, No. 12, Pages 2046-2049
doi: 10.2460/ajvr.67.12.2046

Effects of ultraviolet radiation on 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 synthesis in red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans)

Mark J. Acierno, DVM; Mark A. Mitchell, DVM, PhD; Marlana K. Roundtree; Trevor T. Zachariah, DVM
Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, LA 70810. (Acierno, Mitchell, Roundtree, Zachariah)
Supported by Fluker Farms.

Address correspondence to Dr. Acierno.
Objective—To determine whether there are increased concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitaminn D3 in red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans) after exposure to UV radiation.

Animals—12 yearling turtles recently removed from aestivation.

Procedures—Turtles were randomly allocated to 2 groups (6 turtles/group). An initial blood sample was collected from all turtles for measurement of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations. Turtles of 1 group were then provided no supplemental lighting, whereas turtles of the other group were exposed to full-spectrum coil bulbs at a distance of 22.86 cm. The UV-A and UV-B radiation generated by the supplemental lighting was measured by use of a radiometer-photometer at weekly intervals. Measurements were collected 2.54 and 22.86 cm from the bulb surface. The study was continued for a 4-week period. At the end of the study, a second blood sample was collected from all turtles for measurement of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3.

Results—Mean ± SD 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations differed significantly between turtles provided supplemental UV radiation (71.7 ± 46.9 nmol/L) and those not provided UV radiation (31.4 ± 13.2 nmol/L).

Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Appropriate husbandry recommendations for raising and maintaining red-eared slider turtles should include use of sunlight that is unobstructed by UV-B filtering material or provision of an artificial source of UV-B radiation.

**************************
Just to mess with you Tom, openly and without ill-intent, here is an article (same format) suggesting coil bulbs are good, but still not as good as sunlight.

You really have to be careful taking practical methods from experimental results. Dietary D3 does get into the blood of reptiles, no doubts there at all. The resulting effects on the reptile and it's health and reproduction, well that is wide open.

Will

 

[jaizei]

As an applied means of investigation, D3 supplementation does have an effect, less so many animals in so many cages around the world, that have never been exposed to any 'real' sun, would never have produced offspring. But that preponderance of evidence is anecdotal.

Not knowing the mechanism of the effect of D3 as a dietary supplement does not mean it does not work. It is a bit blind, but it does work.

Will

As evidenced by this study:
www.anapsid.org/pdf/jody-hibma-uvb.pdf

 

[jaizei]

As an applied means of investigation, D3 supplementation does have an effect, less so many animals in so many cages around the world, that have never been exposed to any 'real' sun, would never have produced offspring. But that preponderance of evidence is anecdotal.

Not knowing the mechanism of the effect of D3 as a dietary supplement does not mean it does not work. It is a bit blind, but it does work.

Will

Study showing that D3 has an effect.
www.anapsid.org/pdf/jody-hibma-uvb.pdf

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Ummmmm you too might want to hone your reading skills, that study does in fact purport that dietary D3 IS effective, at least for green iguanas.

Will