Setting up for a Russian Tortoise - Constructive comments welcome

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

@Ink
@wellington
@Alex and the Redfoot
@Tom
@Yvonne G
@SinLA
@Cathie G
@jaizei
@SinLA
@Pippen's Pal
@Kala
@MenagerieGrl

Currently I am feeding Sandy the following.

• Zoo Med Natural Grassland Tortoise Food
• Mazuri Original 5M21 Tortoise Food
• Grocery Food ( See my list in setup writeup on this thread. )
• Wild Violets Leaf's from yard
• Dandelions Leaf's from yards

Plants in Encloser I also saw Sandy eat.

• Sage

Plan to buy the following plants to put in enclosure for Sandy to eat.

• Spider Plant
• Christmas Cactus
• Aloe Plant

Currently in pots or planters.

• Broadleaf testudo mix ( Can actually start feeding Sandy the larger grown plants, will let the other types grow better)
• Wild Violets Leaf's from yard
• Dandelions Leaf's from yards

Plan to buy and place in very large pot:

• Mulberry Tree ( 24" or 36" pot )
• Grape Vine ( 24" or 36" pot )

My question. I want to plant 10 or 12 more different types of plants in window planters which I can grow indoors. Idea is to have a huge supply over the colder months in Rhode Island.

Could you supply a list that I can grow from seeds under grow lights in my basement which I can use to feed Sandy? If you could pick the plant what would you grow in my situation.

Goal is to get Sandra 100% off grocery food as soon as possible.

Here in Finland I have grown under the grow lamp some sprouts for my tortoise, I have been able to get a constant supply to sprinkle on top of his food: water cress, sun flower, corn salad, barley grass, clover (got the seeds at a hardware stores, meant to be planted as a lawn) and corn (I was able to grow a thick grass to be clipped from regular plain popcorn seeds, not the microwave kind obviously). A miniature greenhouse helps to start the seeds quicly and reliably. I feed all these as little sprouts since then they have more nutrition, and are easier to keep constantly growing.

I agree with the other commentators, if correctly supplemented, grocery store greens do no harm during the winter.

 

[Ink]

I have pothos, hostas, spider plants, wandering jews and pansies currently in my turtle enclosure. I just water the plants every couple of days and they seem to be doing well.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I have pothos, hostas, spider plants, wandering jews and pansies currently in my turtle enclosure. I just water the plants every couple of days and they seem to be doing well.

I have pothos, spider plants, boston fern (well, I hope it is) and a prayer plant. Tradescantia zebrina (aka "wandering jew") tragically died in a battle against tortoise power. While these plants are great hides, humidity raisers and shade sources, I would not consider them "foraging plants", except pansies. So I keep them all in wall planter pockets, mostly out of tortoise reach. Except pothos, which my RF loves dearly - she regularly prunes it and fertilizes the soil.

 

[Ink]

Grow different lettuce and try zucchini

 

[_The_Beast_]

I got one of those counter top aero-style growers and it's been amazing for helping me get seedlings off to a strong start before I transfer them to planters in the window or, once it's warm enough, planters outside. Aside from mixing in store bought endive, radicchio, or bok choy (my Russian is a little endive addict) and supplementing with Mazuri, I'm now growing 100% of my own crop! My hatchling really prefers the home grown to the grocery store, so that's an added bonus.

So far we're growing dandelions, kale, arugula, cress, romaine, and thistle for greens and then petunias, forget me knots, alyssum, geraniums, and a few other safe flowers. For ones not started from seeds in the counter garden we've got Christmas cactus, an assortment of safe succulents, spider plant, and inch plant (inch plant gets demolished in the enclosure, so I keep cutting growing for easy replacement after a stubby rampage) growing inside and/or outside the enclosure depending on the plant. I've also grown some herbs but so far they have been rejected by Her/His Majesty (sorry cilantro, mint, and basil).

 

[_The_Beast_]

Tradescantia zebrina (aka "wandering jew") tragically died in a battle against tortoise power.

Our poor inch plant is constantly in a near death state 😂

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I have pothos, spider plants, boston fern (well, I hope it is) and a prayer plant.

I have heard that Pothos is onyl recommended to "forrest species and is safe for Manouria, Sulcata, Leopard tortoise, elongated, Red foots and Hingebacks. I haven't found a clear cut answer on whether it is safe for Russians or not, so I haven't put it into my enclousure. There has been a lot of debate about can it be given to all species. Pothos used to be on the toxic plants list on chleonia.org. It also used to be on the Tortoise Table website, but it is not anymore. Also, many recommend only giving pothos to those tortoises that are not interested in eating it. Do you think it is safe for russians?

 

[jaizei]

@Ink
@wellington
@Alex and the Redfoot
@Tom
@Yvonne G
@SinLA
@Cathie G
@jaizei
@SinLA
@Pippen's Pal
@Kala
@MenagerieGrl

Currently I am feeding Sandy the following.

• Zoo Med Natural Grassland Tortoise Food
• Mazuri Original 5M21 Tortoise Food
• Grocery Food ( See my list in setup writeup on this thread. )
• Wild Violets Leaf's from yard
• Dandelions Leaf's from yards

Plants in Encloser I also saw Sandy eat.

• Sage

Plan to buy the following plants to put in enclosure for Sandy to eat.

• Spider Plant
• Christmas Cactus
• Aloe Plant

Currently in pots or planters.

• Broadleaf testudo mix ( Can actually start feeding Sandy the larger grown plants, will let the other types grow better)
• Wild Violets Leaf's from yard
• Dandelions Leaf's from yards

Plan to buy and place in very large pot:

• Mulberry Tree ( 24" or 36" pot )
• Grape Vine ( 24" or 36" pot )

My question. I want to plant 10 or 12 more different types of plants in window planters which I can grow indoors. Idea is to have a huge supply over the colder months in Rhode Island.

Could you supply a list that I can grow from seeds under grow lights in my basement which I can use to feed Sandy? If you could pick the plant what would you grow in my situation.

Goal is to get Sandra 100% off grocery food as soon as possible.

What are you planning for light for the larger potted tree/vine?

Is there a reason you went with the window planters/what do you have in mind to hold all of these planters?

-----


Starting with just the 2 large plants you listed, you could make a diy version of something like this with LED 'shop lights' from Amazon

For the larger plants, if you had more than 2-3, you could use something like the same LED lights from Amazon mounted to the ceiling/walls to create a bright area. I do this with the 8ft LED strip lights in winter when I bring patio plants in and so I can get a jump start on new plants for spring.

To hold all of the plants/planters, I'd make something like in the videos below. Note, I chose those videos because of the forms of the racks (1 with close shelves, 1 with adjustable lights) just for illustrative purposes; not endorsing anything they said in the video as the way anyone should necessarily do it. Since you're actually growing inside and not just starting the plants, you're going to have to decide if you want to make it so that the lights are adjustable and can be raised as the plants grow, or if you want to have different shelf spacing (on same or separate racks). Closely spaced shelves for starting and then a different shelf or rack for grow out with more height. You can wrap the rack with plastic or a grow tent from Amazon if you need to control humidity or temperature better than ambient in room.

I asked about the window planters because they aren't usually as 'modular' as something like a 1020 tray. Grass or weeds can usually be grown in nested 1020 trays (1 with holes for drainage inside 1 without holes) For plants that need deeper 'soil' than the 2.5" of 1020 trays, you can use underbed totes to make something like the nested 1020 trays. Or use the trays that hold separate pots similar to this .

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I have heard that Pothos is onyl recommended to "forrest species and is safe for Manouria, Sulcata, Leopard tortoise, elongated, Red foots and Hingebacks. I haven't found a clear cut answer on whether it is safe for Russians or not, so I haven't put it into my enclousure. There has been a lot of debate about can it be given to all species. Pothos used to be on the toxic plants list on chleonia.org. It also used to be on the Tortoise Table website, but it is not anymore. Also, many recommend only giving pothos to those tortoises that are not interested in eating it. Do you think it is safe for russians?

The plant is listed as toxic to cats and dogs by the ASPCA, because of the presence of insoluble raphides. (From Wikipedia) and it's high in oxalates. As I understand, accidental chewing will do no harm to Testudos as well as to forest species.

 

[Yvonne G]

Since this thread is about setting up an enclosure for Sandy, I think it's only fitting to include a few pix of her/him here. . . hint, hint!

 

[David Steere]

What are you planning for light for the larger potted tree/vine?

Is there a reason you went with the window planters/what do you have in mind to hold all of these planters?

-----


Starting with just the 2 large plants you listed, you could make a diy version of something like this with LED 'shop lights' from Amazon

For the larger plants, if you had more than 2-3, you could use something like the same LED lights from Amazon mounted to the ceiling/walls to create a bright area. I do this with the 8ft LED strip lights in winter when I bring patio plants in and so I can get a jump start on new plants for spring.

To hold all of the plants/planters, I'd make something like in the videos below. Note, I chose those videos because of the forms of the racks (1 with close shelves, 1 with adjustable lights) just for illustrative purposes; not endorsing anything they said in the video as the way anyone should necessarily do it. Since you're actually growing inside and not just starting the plants, you're going to have to decide if you want to make it so that the lights are adjustable and can be raised as the plants grow, or if you want to have different shelf spacing (on same or separate racks). Closely spaced shelves for starting and then a different shelf or rack for grow out with more height. You can wrap the rack with plastic or a grow tent from Amazon if you need to control humidity or temperature better than ambient in room.

I asked about the window planters because they aren't usually as 'modular' as something like a 1020 tray. Grass or weeds can usually be grown in nested 1020 trays (1 with holes for drainage inside 1 without holes) For plants that need deeper 'soil' than the 2.5" of 1020 trays, you can use underbed totes to make something like the nested 1020 trays. Or use the trays that hold separate pots similar to this .

Thank for the post! Will be watching the videos.

Plan on get about a 20 of these lights. Seed Mix: Broadleaf testudo mix - is growing like crazy under them already. Like 3" high and heathy.

I have five of these shelfs already that I bought 30 years ago. Replace the junk on them with plants instead. Hang lights on shelfs and ceiling.




Will be able to fit a large amount of pots and planters on and under them.

Plus my work area in basement I have a 15foot by 2 foot 2x4 table where all my computers are on that I work with as a computer programmer.

I can have a lot of pot and plants under them. Attach lights to the top of desk which is 1 1/2 thick plywood.

To top it of my enclosure is 20" off the ground. Lots of space to place planters or pots under the enclosure as well.



Plus floor space for a couple of large 2' or 3' pots.

All that is needed is research and advice to select a wide nutritional selection of plants, shrubs and weeds and get them started.

In the meantime will be using grocery food and outdoor safe plants. Once we get the garden started I can offer a lot of leaf's from there as well.

One of the problems with grocery items is the amount you get of each type and it does not last very long in refrigerator. Even opening, fluffing and turning. Ended up throwing a lot of it away.

Once I get it all setup the day to day maintenance will not be a lot of time watering and Sandy will be eating a balanced healthy diet.

That is my current game plan. Since I have the space, time and money to execute. Plus I am going to enjoy doing it which is an added plus.

 

[SinLA]

Thank for the post! Will be watching the videos.

Plan on get about a 20 of these lights. Seed Mix: Broadleaf testudo mix - is growing like crazy under them already. Like 3" high and heathy.

I have five of these shelfs already that I bought 30 years ago. Replace the junk on them with plants instead. Hang lights on shelfs and ceiling.

View attachment 369762


Will be able to fit a large amount of pots and planters on and under them.

Plus my work area in basement I have a 15foot by 2 foot 2x4 table where all my computers are on that I work with as a computer programmer.

I can have a lot of pot and plants under them. Attach lights to the top of desk which is 1 1/2 thick plywood.

To top it of my enclosure is 20" off the ground. Lots of space to place planters or pots under the enclosure as well.

View attachment 369763

Plus floor space for a couple of large 2' or 3' pots.

All that is needed is research and advice to select a wide nutritional selection of plants, shrubs and weeds and get them started.

In the meantime will be using grocery food and outdoor safe plants. Once we get the garden started I can offer a lot of leaf's from there as well.

One of the problems with grocery items is the amount you get of each type and it does not last very long in refrigerator. Even opening, fluffing and turning. Ended up throwing a lot of it away.

Once I get it all setup the day to day maintenance will not be a lot of time watering and Sandy will be eating a balanced healthy diet.

That is my current game plan. Since I have the space, time and money to execute. Plus I am going to enjoy doing it which is an added plus.

I have a plastIc lidded box, I put paper towels I spray with washer and then the grocery greens in the fridge, my endive and radiccio can last weeks..l.

 

[David Steere]

Since this thread is about setting up an enclosure for Sandy, I think it's only fitting to include a few pix of her/him here. . . hint, hint!

I do not have a camera or have yet to ever own a cell phone. Relying on my grandkids for pictures.

Working on getting a device soon. Pictures incoming soon.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

The plant is listed as toxic to cats and dogs by the ASPCA, because of the presence of insoluble raphides. (From Wikipedia) and it's high in oxalates. As I understand, accidental chewing will do no harm to Testudos as well as to forest species.

Sorry, I understood that OP was asking about plants to grow for food, my mistake.

 

[David Steere]

@Tom @Alex and the Redfoot @wellington

Sorry if this is a stupid question. Just came up this morning.

Is there a rule of thumb for tortoise weight?

Every two weeks after the soak at the same time of day I am going to weigh Sandy.

May 17, 2024 = 45 1/2 grams <- Arrived
May 28, 2024 = 54 1/2 grams

She gained 9 grams.

1. Do tortoise weights fluctuate?
2. Should tortoises always gain weight?
3. Is it a problem if they lose weight? Assume you would see other symptoms.
4. Can tortoises eat to much? Get fat? Is that good?

I guess I just want to know what should I be looking for as a benchmark every two weeks.

 

[jaizei]

@Tom @Alex and the Redfoot @wellington

Sorry if this is a stupid question. Just came up this morning.

Is there a rule of thumb for tortoise weight?

Every two weeks after the soak at the same time of day I am going to weigh Sandy.

May 17, 2024 = 45 1/2 grams <- Arrived
May 28, 2024 = 54 1/2 grams

She gained 9 grams.

1. Do tortoise weights fluctuate?
2. Should tortoises always gain weight?
3. Is it a problem if they lose weight? Assume you would see other symptoms.
4. Can tortoises eat to much? Get fat? Is that good?

I guess I just want to know what should I be looking for as a benchmark every two weeks.

I think trends are more important than week to week changes, but a growing tortoise shouldn't lose significant weight or lose/stop gaining weight over a several weighings.

I like to track size as well as weight; usually if the weight plateaus for a week or 2 its that they were growing in other dimensions. You can use graph paper for small tortoises, but something like this would prob last the lifetime of a russian. Whenever you weigh them, take a picture of them over a grid and you can see the changes in size easier. Especially since you don't notice the change as much when you see them everyday.

A 'natural diet' is higher in fiber and lower in calories than something like grocery greens or Mazuri, so it's less likely for the tortoise to get fat. But a tortoise can get fat if it eats too much, or too much 'rich' food.

 

[David Steere]

I think trends are more important than week to week changes, but a growing tortoise shouldn't lose significant weight or lose/stop gaining weight over a several weighings.

I like to track size as well as weight; usually if the weight plateaus for a week or 2 its that they were growing in other dimensions. You can use graph paper for small tortoises, but something like this would prob last the lifetime of a russian. Whenever you weigh them, take a picture of them over a grid and you can see the changes in size easier. Especially since you don't notice the change as much when you see them everyday.

A 'natural diet' is higher in fiber and lower in calories than something like grocery greens or Mazuri, so it's less likely for the tortoise to get fat. But a tortoise can get fat if it eats too much, or too much 'rich' food.

Thanks so much!

I forgot to mention Sandy's length did not change and was 2 3/8" +/- but not 100% accurate since I just eyeballed.

I still need to get a camera or one of the grandkids old cell phones.

I will get some graph paper and put the paper under the soaking container. And get some pictures.

 

[_The_Beast_]

Agreeing with @jaizei on the weight gain and measuring piece. My hatchling dropped a bit in their first week as they were adjusting to their new environment. Since then it's been slow and steady growth and when the growth isn't seen on the scale it's generally seen in other dimensions.

I use a food scale for weight and then a soft measuring tape (like the kind used for measuring for clothing) for shell length, width, and circumference around the middle. I track weekly, but will slow this down once growing slows down. Try to weigh at the same time (e.g., Friday mornings before a soak) but expect small fluctuations based on things like whether they've pooped or peed recently.

I keep track in a notebook and will eventually switch it over to an excel spreadsheet so I can make graphs.

For chubbiness, I have only seen one overweight tortoise in the last year on this forum and it resulted from really poor husbandry conditions the prevented enough movement from happening. At the hatchling stage, I think it's very very unlikely to be a concern given the amazing set-up you've put together. Your hatchling will graze to its heart's content

 

[David Steere]

Agreeing with @jaizei on the weight gain and measuring piece. My hatchling dropped a bit in their first week as they were adjusting to their new environment. Since then it's been slow and steady growth and when the growth isn't seen on the scale it's generally seen in other dimensions.

I use a food scale for weight and then a soft measuring tape (like the kind used for measuring for clothing) for shell length, width, and circumference around the middle. I track weekly, but will slow this down once growing slows down. Try to weigh at the same time (e.g., Friday mornings before a soak) but expect small fluctuations based on things like whether they've pooped or peed recently.

I keep track in a notebook and will eventually switch it over to an excel spreadsheet so I can make graphs.

For chubbiness, I have only seen one overweight tortoise in the last year on this forum and it resulted from really poor husbandry conditions the prevented enough movement from happening. At the hatchling stage, I think it's very very unlikely to be a concern given the amazing set-up you've put together. Your hatchling will graze to its heart's content

Currently using this to weigh Sandy. Need to buy those weights to test to make sure scale is accurate. So many things to do each day and the day just fly's!

 

[Tom]

@Tom @Alex and the Redfoot @wellington

Sorry if this is a stupid question. Just came up this morning.

Is there a rule of thumb for tortoise weight?

Every two weeks after the soak at the same time of day I am going to weigh Sandy.

May 17, 2024 = 45 1/2 grams <- Arrived
May 28, 2024 = 54 1/2 grams

She gained 9 grams.

1. Do tortoise weights fluctuate?
2. Should tortoises always gain weight?
3. Is it a problem if they lose weight? Assume you would see other symptoms.
4. Can tortoises eat to much? Get fat? Is that good?

I guess I just want to know what should I be looking for as a benchmark every two weeks.

1. Yes. A poop and a pee can drop a significant amount of weight sometimes. Look at how much a tortoise eats in a day. That's a lot of weight too. If you weigh your tortoise one week right after a huge meal and before a bowel and bladder movement it might weigh significantly more than the next week's weight if you weigh before it eats that day and after you soak it and the bowel and bladder are empty. I try to make weigh in day consistent each week. Same time of day and same routine. For example, I weigh in the afternoon after they've been eating all day and after a long soak to empty them out. You may prefer to weigh every Saturday morning before a meal or a soak. A consistent weigh-in routine of one sort or another should give you the most accurate picture of what is going on.
2. For a growing baby, with consideration given to number 1 above, yes.
3. Sometimes, but not always. Again, see number one.
4. They cannot eat too much of the right foods. Getting fat is exceedingly rare for our salad eaters. There would have to be a lot of the wrong types of food and a lack of exercise for one reason or another. For young tortoises, an abundance of calories and nutrition results in more growth, not obesity. An older more mature tortoise that is mostly done growing simply doesn't over eat. You can put out huge piles of delicious food, but they can only eat so much, so the caloric intake is somewhat limited by stomach space.

Since you are new to tortoise keeping and clearly enjoy learning, go have some fun with this. Weigh the tortoise before and just after a meal. Before and just after a long soak where they drank water, but also emptied out. Weigh the tortoise in the morning and again that same evening. If you happen to catch a bowel movement, weigh the feces to see just how much weight the tortoise loses every time it poops. Weight the food in the morning to see how much you are giving on a given day. Weigh the pile of soaked Mazuri and compare to the weight of the pile of spring mix. Weigh just before and just after a soak. Was there a net loss from pooping, or a net gain from drinking during the soak? There are likely to be some fun surprises in there for you, and you'll gain a better understanding of how all the different factors affect a tortoises weight at any given time.

To answer your first question: No, there really isn't a rule of thumb. Those weight ratio calculators are a silly waste of time and can't account for different sizes and shapes of tortoise species. "Average" weight by age is useless too, due to the huge number of variables affecting growth with each individual. Even groups of clutch mate siblings in the same enclosure eating the same foods will grow at different rates. The only "rule of thumb" that I would concern myself with is this: A young baby should show steady growth with consistent weigh-ins week after week. Weight loss or lack of gain after a move is understandable. Unexplained weight loss from one week to the next would be cause for concern.