Pyramiding info

[jerbs]

Hey all,
It's been a while since I've posted on here. My guy Milo is about 1.5yrs old , has been growing a lot, and generally doing really well. I have noticed very slight pyramiding the past few weeks. It's nothing severe, but I want to be sure it doesn't continue. This is surprising, as I keep his enclosure's humidity 90-95% (closed top, under-substrate heat rope), temps between 75-88, and feed him a very varied diet of dark leafy greens, fruit, and some protein. I've gone by the book of what I've read here on the forum.

Are there other major factors that contribute to pyramiding, other than humidity? One thing I could think of with Milo is natural sunlight, as he has a UVB light, but we don't get outside as frequently as desired bc of my living situation (once a week, or so). I realize that's not ideal.

Feedback is appreciated.

 

[FLINTUS]

Diet is also a factor. Can you be a bit more specific on what he gets? Does the calcium supplement have D3 as well? The shell also has the opportunity to dry-off, 88 is a bit low for a basking spot.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Needs lots of exercise....

 

[ascott]

Nothing replaces natural sunlight time....also, exercise is very crucial in physical and mental well being.....also, rapid growth does appear to play a role as well.....not the only one but one as well.....

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Needs dark leafy greens and weeds, grasses, blooms, rose petals, grape leaves, mulberry leaves.There is so much involved in bringing up a hatchling to adult. So much is happening in the world of chelonia keeping, it's almost changing on a daily basis.
I baby Rose of Sharon, I grew them from seed, I grow everythingI can for them.
Rose of Sharon, grapes, Trumpet Vine, Crepe Mytrle trees, for my tortoises, and I use Bob poop for fertilizer. It really makes the plants grow.nd day lilies grown for my tortoises. There's squashes, zucchini, clover, cut grass, Eastern Oregon grown grass hay....I hate outside gardening, but I do admit to growing everything I can for Bob and the smaller tortoises. Most of my day is either gardening the tortoise food, preparing the food, collecting it. I hate it. I've got 15 Rose of Sharon plants starting to bloom. Blueberries, blackberries, and Marionberries....

I'd have your basking spot at 90 to 100. 70 and damp is kinda not a good idea. Thats cold to a yearling. If he has a reasonably fresh UVB light he'd be fine. But they do start to run out of UVB rays at 3 or 4 months and the rays are gone at 6 months. I still use them for light but there's no UVB anymore. I make sure all my growing guys have their own outside spot and I bring them in and out everyday....

 

[jerbs]

Thanks for the replies.

For leafs, I rotate between turnip, collard, dandelion and mustard greens, lettuces, escarole, radicchio, and spring mix. I'll cycle in zucchini, mushrooms, and bell peppers. For fruit, he gets berries (strawberries, black, blue and raspberries), plum, kiwi, mango, pineapple, cactus fruit, cactus pad, banana (only about 1x month) and sometimes pear. For protein, I usually give him boiled chicken, or an egg (hard-boiled or cooked through in water). The % of all of this that I roughly follow is 50% dark leafy greens mixed w veggies, 40% fruit, 10% protein. I know there is debate on the % breakdown of food categories. His food consumption all of a sudden rocketed up (and started growing faster) last September. He always finishes all of his food ever day; I usually give him a pile about the size of his shell, or slightly larger. Over-eating is one thing that has crossed my mind as a possibility.

Yes, there's D3 included in the supplement. For a supplement, I used Madkins' recipe of crushing a couple of human multi-vitamins, and mixing it with calcium carbonate and timothy hay. I sprinkle it on his food about twice a week, or if he's having something a little less nutritious in itself (straight up lettuce).

To be more accurate, the hottest spot in his enclosure is 91. When I wrote the original post, I had the number 88 in my head because that's what I have his thermostat at, and the sensor is slightly away from directly under his CHE. From what I've gathered over time, this should be a desirable temperature-- correct?

He's in a 75 gallon enclosure (4ft x 1.5fx) and does quite a bit of motoring around. Perhaps exercise is an issue, but I feel it may be over-eating or the shell drying out before this.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[jerbs]

One more thing that could be an issue is the UVB dying out of the bulb, as Maggie suggested. I know there are multiple pieces to the puzzle, but I had his previous UVB light for about a year before I replaced it.

The top of the soil isn't damp. I keep it dry. The humidity comes up from mid-substrate level.

 

[jerbs]

Also! I give him warm water soaks for 20-30 minutes, 5 times per week.

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughts.

 

[pfara]

I could be an exception to the rule (but I doubt it), but it can't be from just over eating. My fatties eat boatloads and have even grown 2 ounces in the course of one month but still remain smooth. I know this doesn't help much but it might eliminate a reason.

 

[FLINTUS]

Take notes every time you go and feed your tortoise of where she is and what the temperatures and humidity are at that time. Often tortoises can choose one area of the enclosure, and this often makes them pyramid, despite you offering your best care. That said, I would still say to offer your tortoise a variety of conditions in the enclosure. Also, does she tend to leave any food items? Your diet sounds good, but try to include more weeds and flowers rather than store bought produce.
Fast growth can help pyramiding, but it is not a direct factor in itself. Maybe upgrade the space to give him more room to roam.

 

[jerbs]

Thanks , Flintus. He spends about 80% of his time in the same general area, which remains 88-91 degs and 90% + humidity. Having said that, he's usually walking around and exploring. I'll track it more over time.

How important is it to keep a moist shell, even if ambient humidity is maintained 90%+ ?

I realize I should feed more flowers and weeds. For flowers- do you grow or buy them? I get food from the local co-op and farmer's market when possible however, yes, though well-washed, I most often feed store greens.

Here are a few close-ups. I don't think I should be extremely worried, but this isn't ideal--- correct?

 

[jerbs]

Flintus,
I didn't respond to your other question. He rarely leaves any food items. Of course he has his favorites (mango, berries), but I mix it up enough that he eats what he is served.

How do the the growth lines, and general growth, look to you?

 

[FLINTUS]

The growth is a bit pyramided, but not serious. Not a bad looking tortoise. However, there is, IMO, quite a lot of growth there for a 1.5 year old. To be on the safe side, cut down the amount of food given. Hydration is generally more important than humidity, so try to offer soaks more often/

 

[jerbs]

Thanks, Flintus. I appreciate the feedback.

What kind of spacing should one be looking for between growth lines?

 

[FLINTUS]

That's a hard one as every tortoise is different. What is his SCL atm, and what was it when you first measured him? If you start seeing thick white growth line, then I'd be a bit more worried.
With regards to the flowers which you asked about, I generally find mine around in the garden or on walks, but I also grow some. Hibiscus, bromeliads and evening primrose are good ones to grow.
If he's spending more time in the 88-91 range, that may be the problem. I presume there is a basking lamp there? That could easily dry out the shell all the time, even if the humidity is high. Maybe try getting a mister to keep the shell wet, and I'd be tempted to experiment by taking away the basking lamp for a while, and placing a heat mat on the wall instead so you get a better ambient temperature. Spray him whenever you get the chance, and the rest of your care sounds good.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I also have slight piramiding that looks exactly like yours and my guy lives outdoors and eats like a king. It's been storming everyday for weeks so hydration isn't an issue. He had this when I purchased him. It has never gone away.

 

[katrvt]

It won't go away zero, we can't correct old pyramidding, only make sure new growth is smooth

 

[jerbs]

That's a hard one as every tortoise is different. What is his SCL atm, and what was it when you first measured him? If you start seeing thick white growth line, then I'd be a bit more worried.
With regards to the flowers which you asked about, I generally find mine around in the garden or on walks, but I also grow some. Hibiscus, bromeliads and evening primrose are good ones to grow.
If he's spending more time in the 88-91 range, that may be the problem. I presume there is a basking lamp there? That could easily dry out the shell all the time, even if the humidity is high. Maybe try getting a mister to keep the shell wet, and I'd be tempted to experiment by taking away the basking lamp for a while, and placing a heat mat on the wall instead so you get a better ambient temperature. Spray him whenever you get the chance, and the rest of your care sounds good.

Thanks, Flintus. I haven't measured him since mid-January, at which point he was 3.5 inches SCL. I had measured him exactly one year prior, and he was 2.5 inches SCL. I was going to measure him again this week; I think he's probably right at 4 inches. See the attached spreadsheet. You can see a big jump in weight around September of last year. That's when he started eating/growing much more noticeably.

I haven't seen any real thick white growth lines, but just occasional thin ones between the scutes. They look normal, judging against what I see on the Forum.

That is a good thought about the CHE. It is in a brooder hood, which really directs it straight down. I've moved it to the center of the enclosure so that the area where he normally sleeps will have more ambient heat. I'm going to hook up the CHE to a mounted socket on the roof of the enclosure to provide less-direct heat... keep you posted on how everything is going.

 

[FLINTUS]

Definitely a big change in September, but the growth rate sounds relatively normal, he just looks quite big.
Give the ambient idea a try, and see what happens. It's one of the newer theories around, but there is some quite interesting data behind it. Not a main factor of pyramiding, but could explain something like this where it is very minor.

 

[jerbs]

Sounds great. I have seen that his shell dries off quickly after I soak or mist him. Hopefully the ambient temp theory is it.

Maybe it's too early tell, but perhaps he is just a larger redfoot. We'll see.

Thanks again for the feedback.