Armenian Greeks

[Neltharion]

A local club member is selling his group of Greek tortoises. These have four toes on the front legs, and most of them are nearly entirely black or dark, lacking patterns. They are also rounder than most Greeks seem to be. I should have taken pics.

He says these Greeks are unique to Armenia, Azerbaijan, and the northwestern tip of Iran, and that they are no longer imported into the U.S. He has three males and three females. These are big torts. Males seem to be about 7 inches plus or minus a half inch. The females are all 8 inches plus, with the largest female looking to be just under 10 inches.

Were these commonly imported at one time? And is it true they're no longer imported? He actually wants quite a bit of money for them, even considering the fact that they are breeding size. I'm trying to gauge the scarcity of these greeks in the U.S. to see if it justifies the price tag.

The pic attached below is NOT an actual pic. I did an internet search, and it looks nearly identical to the ones that I saw.

 

[zzzdanz]

I'ld send Chris L. an e-mail. He'll probably know about these. http://www.gardenstatetortoise.com/

 

[Tccarolina]

Here are two range maps that seem to validify what he's saying. Armenian greeks - Testudo graeca armeniaca
Black greeks are definitely in demand.

 

[Neltharion]

I seem to remember seeing the maps before, but never paid too much attention to them. Thanks for posting these.

 

[GBtortoises]

Yep, they're pretty rare in the U.S. Chances are they weren't imported species specific, but within large shipments of Middle Eastern Greeks over the past decade. Unless they came in before that, then they could have come in species specific. Either way, they aren't common in the U.S. Based on their locality they will probably tolerate similar to that of Ibera with slightly warmer daytime activity levels.
Don't know the price but if they were offered to me I'd very likely be buying them! And if you do get them you are absolutely obligated to post lots of photos of them! Okay, you're really not "obligated" but I for one am going to whine a lot if you don't!

 

[Neltharion]

Yep, they're pretty rare in the U.S. Chances are they weren't imported species specific, but within large shipments of Middle Eastern Greeks over the past decade. Unless they came in before that, then they could have come in species specific. Either way, they aren't common in the U.S. Based on their locality they will probably tolerate similar to that of Ibera with slightly warmer daytime activity levels.
Don't know the price but if they were offered to me I'd very likely be buying them! And if you do get them you are absolutely obligated to post lots of photos of them! Okay, you're really not "obligated" but I for one am going to whine a lot if you don't!

I asked him about how he acquired them. He says that they originally came to a wholesaler here in California. He and his brother bought a group of what was labelled as T.g. buxtoni or Caspian Greeks in the late 80's. They were informed later by a vet at UC Davis that what they had were actually Armenian Greeks, the Caspian Greeks are much lighter and not quite as rounded.

From the original group of 12 that they bought, three of them died within the first few months. His brother is keeping a male and two of the females. If I decide to buy them, he wants a contract that should I ever decide to sell them, the brothers will be given the first option to buy them back. They're trying to acquire a group of Radiateds and need the money.

 

[Tccarolina]

Has he or his brother had any success breeding them yet? From what he told you, they've had them for over 20 years now, right?

If you decide to buy them, you should make the contract to go both ways, so his brother also has to give you first option if he ever wants to sell his trio.

Yep, they're pretty rare in the U.S. Chances are they weren't imported species specific, but within large shipments of Middle Eastern Greeks over the past decade. Unless they came in before that, then they could have come in species specific. Either way, they aren't common in the U.S. Based on their locality they will probably tolerate similar to that of Ibera with slightly warmer daytime activity levels.
Don't know the price but if they were offered to me I'd very likely be buying them! And if you do get them you are absolutely obligated to post lots of photos of them! Okay, you're really not "obligated" but I for one am going to whine a lot if you don't!

I asked him about how he acquired them. He says that they originally came to a wholesaler here in California. He and his brother bought a group of what was labelled as T.g. buxtoni or Caspian Greeks in the late 80's. They were informed later by a vet at UC Davis that what they had were actually Armenian Greeks, the Caspian Greeks are much lighter and not quite as rounded.

From the original group of 12 that they bought, three of them died within the first few months. His brother is keeping a male and two of the females. If I decide to buy them, he wants a contract that should I ever decide to sell them, the brothers will be given the first option to buy them back. They're trying to acquire a group of Radiateds and need the money.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi guys,
I would not miss them, if given the opportunity. If they have a slight Horsfieldi-like appearance, they should be indeed armeniaca.
About hardiness- they are to be found in the Turkey-Armenia border area, and winters there are at least as harsh as in Bucharest, Romania, with -30*C not uncommon, at least once in 10 years.
You should keep tortoises of this strain always connected, not to be given away and lose the chance of cross-breed their offspring, one day.

 

[Neltharion]

Has he or his brother had any success breeding them yet? From what he told you, they've had them for over 20 years now, right?

If you decide to buy them, you should make the contract to go both ways, so his brother also has to give you first option if he ever wants to sell his trio.

He said that he had them about five years before they started breeding. The offspring have been sold locally. They have not maintained any detailed records of who they've sold to. He says that in most cases people have bought single specimens, and rarely bought multiples. Unfortunately, he's sold to some of the local pet shops, and they've been retailed generically as Black Greeks. There are owners out there that don't realize they have a rare subspecies.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]