Sphagnum moss and shell rot

[jerbs]

Hi everyone,

Even though the hygrometer always reads in the 70-80%'s in my tort's enclosure, the sphagnum moss and organic soil just under it my guy likes to burrow in sometimes seems more than just "moist." I've read a bit on how sphagnum moss can make tortoises (redfoots) susceptible to shell rot if found to be overly wet, because of it's acidity. Have you all found this to be true? Also, how long does it normally take for signs of shell rot to show if it is going to?

It is also possible that the moss is of a good dampness and I'm looking for something to be concerned about. Thoughts appreciated!

 

[bigred]

Hi everyone,

Even though the hygrometer always reads in the 70-80%'s in my tort's enclosure, the sphagnum moss and organic soil just under it my guy likes to burrow in sometimes seems more than just "moist." I've read a bit on how sphagnum moss can make tortoises (redfoots) susceptible to shell rot if found to be overly wet, because of it's acidity. Have you all found this to be true? Also, how long does it normally take for signs of shell rot to show if it is going to?

It is also possible that the moss is of a good dampness and I'm looking for something to be concerned about. Thoughts appreciated!

Ive been keeping redfoots on this substrate for years and never had 1 tortoise develop shellrot. If its deep enough the bottom layer can be more moist than the top layer

 

[jerbs]

Hi everyone,

Even though the hygrometer always reads in the 70-80%'s in my tort's enclosure, the sphagnum moss and organic soil just under it my guy likes to burrow in sometimes seems more than just "moist." I've read a bit on how sphagnum moss can make tortoises (redfoots) susceptible to shell rot if found to be overly wet, because of it's acidity. Have you all found this to be true? Also, how long does it normally take for signs of shell rot to show if it is going to?

It is also possible that the moss is of a good dampness and I'm looking for something to be concerned about. Thoughts appreciated!

Ive been keeping redfoots on this substrate for years and never had 1 tortoise develop shellrot. If its deep enough the bottom layer can be more moist than the top layer

I added a bit to make it deeper. No signs of rot, I just want to prevent it.

When measuring humidity, do you measure it within the moss or just the ambient air humidity?

 

[RedfootsRule]

Er, I don't know where you heard that. It's the exact opposite.
The acidity of spaghum moss prevents fungus, or any kind of mold from growing. I'm with big red; been using it for quite a long time, never one problem with molds/fungus on the torts or the substrate.

 

[jerbs]

Here's a quote from tortoiselibrary.com, under "Shell Rot":

"Prevent overly-wet substrates, especially acidic materials such as mosses, and especially for susceptible species like Red-foots. These conditions can lead to environmental 'rots' that behave like 'immersion foot' does for humans."

 

[RedfootsRule]

I've been using spaghum moss for years, and in my opinion, there is no better substrate for hatchlings. Nice and soft, good for burrowing, stays perfectly moist...I also would mention not one has ever developed fungus or any kind of environmental rot on spaghum, where-as on other substrates, such as coir and mulch, I've had it happen.
There is a certain brand I've always used called "Mosser-Lee" that is naturally repellant to molds or funguses...

All I know is, it's never happened for me on this one, and it has on others.

 

[jerbs]

I've been using spaghum moss for years, and in my opinion, there is no better substrate for hatchlings. Nice and soft, good for burrowing, stays perfectly moist...I also would mention not one has ever developed fungus or any kind of environmental rot on spaghum, where-as on other substrates, such as coir and mulch, I've had it happen.
There is a certain brand I've always used called "Mosser-Lee" that is naturally repellant to molds or funguses...

All I know is, it's never happened for me on this one, and it has on others.

Thanks for this. I'm actually using that brand, too.

Do you have any experience with organic mulch? Right now, 75% of enclosure is moss/soil mix, 25% (burrowing places) is straight moss.

 

[RedfootsRule]

I've been using spaghum moss for years, and in my opinion, there is no better substrate for hatchlings. Nice and soft, good for burrowing, stays perfectly moist...I also would mention not one has ever developed fungus or any kind of environmental rot on spaghum, where-as on other substrates, such as coir and mulch, I've had it happen.
There is a certain brand I've always used called "Mosser-Lee" that is naturally repellant to molds or funguses...

All I know is, it's never happened for me on this one, and it has on others.

Thanks for this. I'm actually using that brand, too.

Do you have any experience with organic mulch? Right now, 75% of enclosure is moss/soil mix, 25% (burrowing places) is straight moss.

Never sure what "organic mulch" means . I use plain untreated cypress mulch (suppose that would be "organic"?) from Home Depot, and it holds humidity very nicely for me. I would say cypress mulch holds it a little bit better then spaghum, and I usually move any that I keep back to over 6 months on to cypress.
On cypress though, you must watch a little more for funguses. It does occur a little more commonly on cypress, but otherwise, the mulch is great.
The substrate you have sounds great. How deep is the moss though? I usually keep a nice 6x6x6 fluffed up pile of mulch in the corner for them to burrow into. It gets a lot of use .

 

[jerbs]

ugh, by "organic mulch" i meant "organic soil."

thanks for the input. i have a flower pot on its side with a couple handfulls in it, and then a pile in the corner that is about 4inches deep. he burrows in both an pretty even amount!

i'll keep this soil/moss and straight moss combo going for a while. as long as nothing grows on this stuff i think we are good to go.

 

[TortoiseWorld]

Here's a quote from tortoiselibrary.com, under "Shell Rot":

"Prevent overly-wet substrates, especially acidic materials such as mosses, and especially for susceptible species like Red-foots. These conditions can lead to environmental 'rots' that behave like 'immersion foot' does for humans."

You misread it, it's saying sphagnum moss will prevent rot.

If you provide excellent nutrition and UVB light, you won't have any issues.
Have an area in your enclosure where it is dryer so they can have the ability to dry out if they want to.

 

[theelectraco]

You misread it, it's saying sphagnum moss will prevent rot.

If you provide excellent nutrition and UVB light, you won't have any issues.
Have an area in your enclosure where it is dryer so they can have the ability to dry out if they want to.

The way it is quoted does imply that it will cause, not prevent.

 

[jerbs]

Here's a quote from tortoiselibrary.com, under "Shell Rot":

"Prevent overly-wet substrates, especially acidic materials such as mosses, and especially for susceptible species like Red-foots. These conditions can lead to environmental 'rots' that behave like 'immersion foot' does for humans."

You misread it, it's saying sphagnum moss will prevent rot.

If you provide excellent nutrition and UVB light, you won't have any issues.
Have an area in your enclosure where it is dryer so they can have the ability to dry out if they want to.

Ok! I'm glad I read it wrong. Appreciate it.

 

[Madkins007]

I wrote it, and it is my OPINION that the acidic moss contributes to a non-fungal rot when it is too wet. I know a lot of keepers use it with no problems, but here in very dry (in the winter) Nebraska, mine was always either bone dry or very wet. I did not have this problem on other, more neutral surfaces.

My tortoises developed a minor form of rot that did not seem like bacterial or fungal forms, and responded well to cleaning and changing the substrate. My THEORY is that the mild acid helped eat away at the scutes already softened by the too-constant contact with the wet surfaces. The scute material easily rubbed off, almost exactly like the thickened skin on the sole does in a mild case of immersion foot.

I see the moss as an example of a system that works for some, but not as well for others, and why we should be offering choices, as well as trying to help determine what works best for what situations.

I also see that the bullet point in the article somehow lost the 'in my opinion' bit, so I just edited the page a bit. I also corrected some pretty stilted sentences.

---

(snip)

If you provide excellent nutrition and UVB light, you won't have any issues.
Have an area in your enclosure where it is dryer so they can have the ability to dry out if they want to.

OK, I can see how sufficient UV lighting can kill some of the pathogens that cause shell rot, and a good diet helps with EVERYTHING, but are you seriously suggesting that other environmental issues do not play a role in this?

 

[RedfootsRule]

I do not see anywhere in SaveTheTortoise's statement that suggested what you are accusing, Mark. Do you not see the place where he stated having an area of the enclosure dryer? Please do not be so critical just because of some incorrect conclusion you draw from misunderstanding. I can think of many much more pleasant ways you could have worded that.

 

[jerbs]

I'm sure different situations in different contexts can bear different results. Thank you, all, for your input.

Mark, I live in Minnesota, also with bone dry winters. I think I've found a good timing system with my humidifier on the sphagnum moss, but for future possible use, what other substrates for hatchlings have you found to work well in this type of climate? Coco coir?

 

[Madkins007]

I do not see anywhere in SaveTheTortoise's statement that suggested what you are accusing, Mark. Do you not see the place where he stated having an area of the enclosure dryer? Please do not be so critical just because of some incorrect conclusion you draw from misunderstanding. I can think of many much more pleasant ways you could have worded that.

Other than the word 'seriously', I don't see any other suggestions of a critical tone here. I am honestly really curious about his comment.