Normal behaviour ? Hermann constantly wants to escape

[Lisad]

Hello, I'm hoping for some advice as I'm really not sure what more I can do for my tortoise.
I am in Italy so he lives outside year round, he brumates from November - March without any issues.
My problem is he spends all his day pacing his enclosure and scratching and banging to come out. It's so loud that I can hear him when I am inside and have my windows and doors open.
His enclosure is 8x4 (minimum I know but he's still only a small fella) and I've really tried my best to make it as stimulating for him as possible but still he's not happy. Even when I give him access to the whole yard he will display the same behaviours so space doesn't seem to be the issue as it's never enough.
I'm not sure what more I can do, I hate seeing him so distressed and the other day I found him on his back so I'm worried he will hurt himself. I will attach a picture of his enclosure. I'd appreciate any advice, thanks for reading.

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

That's a lovely enclosure. Regarding the behavior, could it be seasonal? Is there something outside his enclosure he is trying to get to? Does he calm down after soaking time? Could there be some ladies around that he spotted? Have there been changes to his diet? Do you have an ant problem by any chance, and he could be trying to escape them?

 

[Lisad]

That's a lovely enclosure. Regarding the behavior, could it be seasonal? Is there something outside his enclosure he is trying to get to? Does he calm down after soaking time? Could there be some ladies around that he spotted? Have there been changes to his diet? Do you have an ant problem by any chance, and he could be trying to escape them?

Hi, thanks so much for your reply and advice, I really appreciate any help!
This is just my second summer having him and he's my first tortoise so I don't know if this is normal, it's very hot here at the moment and I thought that would slow him down but it's having the opposite effect, he's becoming more and more agitated each day. From 7am until 8pm with only a few breaks in-between. The noise from his shell hitting off the wood is extremely loud and frustrating
His diet is fine, I pick him weeds, clover, cicoria etc and some flowers but some days he doesn't even eat because he's so focused on escaping.
Yes there has been an ant problem recently (black ants) so we are doing what we can for that but even when I give him access to the whole garden he will find a wall and continue to pace and try to climb it.
I'm so upset and stressed for this situation because I've tried my best to give him a good life and keep him safe but it's never enough. I hate to say this but I'm no longer enjoying taking care of him, I am seriously considering finding him a new home with people more experienced than me. Thanks again for your help

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

Hi, thanks so much for your reply and advice, I really appreciate any help!
This is just my second summer having him and he's my first tortoise so I don't know if this is normal, it's very hot here at the moment and I thought that would slow him down but it's having the opposite effect, he's becoming more and more agitated each day. From 7am until 8pm with only a few breaks in-between. The noise from his shell hitting off the wood is extremely loud and frustrating
His diet is fine, I pick him weeds, clover, cicoria etc and some flowers but some days he doesn't even eat because he's so focused on escaping.
Yes there has been an ant problem recently (black ants) so we are doing what we can for that but even when I give him access to the whole garden he will find a wall and continue to pace and try to climb it.
I'm so upset and stressed for this situation because I've tried my best to give him a good life and keep him safe but it's never enough. I hate to say this but I'm no longer enjoying taking care of him, I am seriously considering finding him a new home with people more experienced than me. Thanks again for your help

Just hold on.... Deep breaths, deep breaths. For all we know, he is trying to outrun the heat? My sisters told me that the heatwave has been insane this year across Europe, so it could be just that. Does he have cool areas? Deep shade? Does he soak regularly? Loss of appetite is one of the signs of not feeling well, and overheating, too. Maybe if you brought him inside during the hottest times, it could help him to cool/calm down? I understand that it's stressful, and you have tried your best to provide a good life for the little one, and we will find some answers and solutions. Just don't lose hope! Let's see what others can suggest to help. @Tom @Yvonne G @Markw84 @Alex and the Redfoot @The_Four_Toed_Edward @Cathie G @ZEROPILOT @zovick

 

[COmtnLady]

How old is your tortoise?

That's a nice enclosure!

A double (or triple)-layer of shade would help things. The first layer, the lower roof/umbrella/tent/plant/bush to cast shade, then another above that one to shade the shade. It should create a particularly dark damp spot below where your tortoise can escape the heat of the day. If you stick your hand inside you should notice it to be quite a bit cooler than the rest of the enclosure. The deep shade should be over a favorite spot or a hide that your tortoise likes to be in, so that your tortoise can feel safe and enclosed. And you should make sure the floor of it stays damp to further cool it down. I assume that blue piece in the picture is supposed to be shade, but it is not enough (it could be a lower shade with another darker one several inches or more above it Create a cool dark place so your tortoise doesn't feel exposed.
They can't cool themselves down, or find a much cooler spot if you have not created one, so it is up to you to provide a much cooler place that is easily accessible to the tortoise.
Keeping the floor damp will help keep the temperatures lower.

The importance of DEEP shade

Ok, folks, we need to talk about SHADE. You have probably (hopefully) heard tortoise keepers talking about the fact that tortoises need "DEEP SHADE" to retreat into on a hot Summer day (really any day that has air temps above 80 degrees). What do we mean by "deep shade?" - this is NOT...

tortoiseforum.org

Allowing your tortoise to roam outside the enclosure is a mistake. It tells your tortoise that there is a big world out there to explore (to escape to in hopes of finding a cool place to hide) and not to be satisfied with the enclosure you've made. It will take a while to remind your tortoise how nice the enclosure is. That is part of the banging on the sides you are hearing.

Is there any chance the ant problem is still there and your tortoise is trying to get away from them?


How often do you regularly soak your tortoise? The water needs to be 35C/95F the entire time your tortoise is in it, and it should only be as deep as where the top and bottom shell come together, so the water will try to cool off very quickly. Don't allow the water to cool down more than a couple degrees, replace it with warm water to maintain close to 35C the entire half hour or hour you are soaking your tortoise. (It should be in a container deep enough that your tortoise can not climb out, preferably with opaque sides that are vertical. Do not worry if your tortoise scrambles around, it is normal, good exercise.)
Younger ones do well with daily soaks, adults (3 or 4 years old and more) can make do with every other day. Because it is so hot outside, daily would help any age




.

 

[Lisad]

Just hold on.... Deep breaths, deep breaths. For all we know, he is trying to outrun the heat? My sisters told me that the heatwave has been insane this year across Europe, so it could be just that. Does he have cool areas? Deep shade? Does he soak regularly? Loss of appetite is one of the signs of not feeling well, and overheating, too. Maybe if you brought him inside during the hottest times, it could help him to cool/calm down? I understand that it's stressful, and you have tried your best to provide a good life for the little one, and we will find some answers and solutions. Just don't lose hope! Let's see what others can suggest to help. @Tom @Yvonne G @Markw84 @Alex and the Redfoot @The_Four_Toed_Edward @Cathie G @ZEROPILOT @zovick[/USER
[QUOTE="Alice Sulcatia, post: 2227152, member: 184956"]
Just hold on.... Deep breaths, deep breaths. For all we know, he is trying to outrun the heat? My sisters told me that the heatwave has been insane this year across Europe, so it could be just that. Does he have cool areas? Deep shade? Does he soak regularly? Loss of appetite is one of the signs of not feeling well, and overheating, too. Maybe if you brought him inside during the hottest times, it could help him to cool/calm down? I understand that it's stressful, and you have tried your best to provide a good life for the little one, and we will find some answers and solutions. Just don't lose hope! Let's see what others can suggest to help. [USER=3441]@Tom @Yvonne G @Markw84 @Alex and the Redfoot @The_Four_Toed_Edward @Cathie G @ZEROPILOT @zovick

Sorry, today has just been a particularly frustrating day I'm feeling very defeated, like the more I do the worse he's becoming. Yes he has shade areas, his spider plant especially has gotten quite large and gives good shade and I pop up an umbrella on one end but he starts this behaviour early in the morning when it's nice and cool and before the sun even hits his enclosure. I don't soak him anymore but he has a terracotta saucer with fresh water available. I mist the enclosure at night to water the plants and the mornings are quite humid still. Thank you for your kindness and support and sorry again for my panic but I just want to give him a good life as natural as possible. I had no idea they could be so active and stubborn. Could it be hormones/mating season?
[/QUOTE]

 

[COmtnLady]

In answer to your first question - Yes, it is normal behavior to try to escape something uncomfortable or life-threatening.


Tortoises need soaking. Not just the self-soaking available in the enclosure. It keeps you be in touch with the tortoise's health, many poop in the water so you can see the quality of its digestion or if it is ill and needs attention. Soaking ensures hydration. Soaking is important al all stages of life.

As stated above, he needs deep shade. The spider plant would be a good first layer, but there should be another shade-making item above the plant to make double shade. And the floor/dirt underneath the plant should be wet enough that moisture evaporates up through and keeps that dark cool place a few more degrees cooler. You should be able to feel a distinct coolness (at least five degrees of difference, more is better) if you put your hand under the plant where your tortoise sits. He is too hot. He needs a place to lower his internal temperature. Soaking would help, a cool place he would hide would help. He is too hot.

Between not soaking and not keeping the enclosure cool enough, that is prompting him to try to get out and find a place where he isn't too hot. It is VERY important to offer him a place where it is 29C (or lower would be good, too). He has NO way to cool down as it is now. You are frying him. In a natural setting he would have created his own burrow that is deep enough and damp enough that he isn't suffering. He needs a cooler place. Or keep him in your house where it is cooler than out in the hottest part of the day's sun.
Do you have ice available? If so, put a bowl or small plastic bag of it inside a hide or under the plant. It may take him a while to find it, but that at least would offer him some respite.


Again - how old is your tortoise?



.

 

[Lisad]

How old is your tortoise?

That's a nice enclosure!

A double (or triple)-layer of shade would help things. The first layer, the lower roof/umbrella/tent/plant/bush to cast shade, then another above that one to shade the shade. It should create a particularly dark damp spot below where your tortoise can escape the heat of the day. If you stick your hand inside you should notice it to be quite a bit cooler than the rest of the enclosure. The deep shade should be over a favorite spot or a hide that your tortoise likes to be in, so that your tortoise can feel safe and enclosed. And you should make sure the floor of it stays damp to further cool it down. I assume that blue piece in the picture is supposed to be shade, but it is not enough (it could be a lower shade with another darker one several inches or more above it Create a cool dark place so your tortoise doesn't feel exposed.
They can't cool themselves down, or find a much cooler spot if you have not created one, so it is up to you to provide a much cooler place that is easily accessible to the tortoise.
Keeping the floor damp will help keep the temperatures lower.

The importance of DEEP shade

Ok, folks, we need to talk about SHADE. You have probably (hopefully) heard tortoise keepers talking about the fact that tortoises need "DEEP SHADE" to retreat into on a hot Summer day (really any day that has air temps above 80 degrees). What do we mean by "deep shade?" - this is NOT...

tortoiseforum.org

Allowing your tortoise to roam outside the enclosure is a mistake. It tells your tortoise that there is a big world out there to explore (to escape to in hopes of finding a cool place to hide) and not to be satisfied with the enclosure you've made. It will take a while to remind your tortoise how nice the enclosure is. That is part of the banging on the sides you are hearing.

Is there any chance the ant problem is still there and your tortoise is trying to get away from them?


How often do you regularly soak your tortoise? The water needs to be 35C/95F the entire time your tortoise is in it, and it should only be as deep as where the top and bottom shell come together, so the water will try to cool off very quickly. Don't allow the water to cool down more than a couple degrees, replace it with warm water to maintain close to 35C the entire half hour or hour you are soaking your tortoise. (It should be in a container deep enough that your tortoise can not climb out, preferably with opaque sides that are vertical. Do not worry if your tortoise scrambles around, it is normal, good exercise.)
Younger ones do well with daily soaks, adults (3 or 4 years old and more) can make do with every other day. Because it is so hot outside, daily would help any age




.

Hi, thank you so much for your detailed reply, I appreciate all the information. I have read the thread on here about creating deep shade before and I know that's important so I put an umbrella over one of his hides. I do find him here during the hottest parts of the day when he eventually takes a short break. I'll attach a picture of the hide.
Oh the blue piece is just to try create a dappled shade area, I usually keep his food underneath so it doesn't go bad in the sun too fast. I mist the enclosure usually at night to water the plants and it's quite humid in the mornings still. I don't soak anymore, I figured he could do it himself but maybe I can give that a try and see if it helps calm him down a little, thanks. The ants are definitely still a problem all over the garden this year, my poor boyfriend is in the battle of his life with them and for sure I've created a monster by letting him out into the garden so often, I agree it was a big mistake, he used to be more satisfied with a little walk and snacking on some weeds and then back in his enclosure for a rest but now when I place him back in he immediately wants back out. I would love to give him the whole garden but I have 3 dogs so it wouldn't be safe. Maybe I could section off part of the garden and just let him stay out all day and then put him back in his enclosure at night. Anything for peace at this stage, for both of us! Thanks again for your help

 

[Lisad]

In answer to your first question - Yes, it is normal behavior to try to escape something uncomfortable or life-threatening.


Tortoises need soaking. Not just the self-soaking available in the enclosure. It keeps you be in touch with the tortoise's health, many poop in the water so you can see the quality of its digestion or if it is ill and needs attention. Soaking ensures hydration. Soaking is important al all stages of life.

As stated above, he needs deep shade. The spider plant would be a good first layer, but there should be another shade-making item above the plant to make double shade. And the floor/dirt underneath the plant should be wet enough that moisture evaporates up through and keeps that dark cool place a few more degrees cooler. You should be able to feel a distinct coolness (at least five degrees of difference, more is better) if you put your hand under the plant where your tortoise sits. He is too hot. He needs a place to lower his internal temperature. Soaking would help, a cool place he would hide would help. He is too hot.

Between not soaking and not keeping the enclosure cool enough, that is prompting him to try to get out and find a place where he isn't too hot. It is VERY important to offer him a place where it is 29C (or lower would be good, too). He has NO way to cool down as it is now. You are frying him. In a natural setting he would have created his own burrow that is deep enough and damp enough that he isn't suffering. He needs a cooler place. Or keep him in your house where it is cooler than out in the hottest part of the day's sun.
Do you have ice available? If so, put a bowl or small plastic bag of it inside a hide or under the plant. It may take him a while to find it, but that at least would offer him some respite.


Again - how old is your tortoise?



.

Frying him? Life threatening? Are you actually serious? I came here for advice because I want the best for the animals in my care. How dare you try to make me feel like I'm doing something to cause harm. I will not be answering any more of your questions or engaging with you on my thread.

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

Sorry, today has just been a particularly frustrating day I'm feeling very defeated, like the more I do the worse he's becoming. Yes he has shade areas, his spider plant especially has gotten quite large and gives good shade and I pop up an umbrella on one end but he starts this behaviour early in the morning when it's nice and cool and before the sun even hits his enclosure. I don't soak him anymore but he has a terracotta saucer with fresh water available. I mist the enclosure at night to water the plants and the mornings are quite humid still. Thank you for your kindness and support and sorry again for my panic but I just want to give him a good life as natural as possible. I had no idea they could be so active and stubborn. Could it be hormones/mating season?

It's alright, nobody makes good decisions when they feel down, and then one thing after another, and then somebody's scratching is aggravating every brain cell on top of it! In America, there is a saying, sometimes you are the windshield, and sometimes you are the fly! Today you were a fly... However, we have very knowledgeable people here, like @COmtnLady , whose advice might just save the day! With this heatwave, my bet is that the little guy is trying to escape the heat and the ants, so I would focus on keeping him hydrated and cool, including soaking him for long periods of time and finding an effective and pet-friendly ant killer. AND! All this talk about him ... Come si chiama?

 

[Lisad]

It's alright, nobody makes good decisions when they feel down, and then one thing after another, and then somebody's scratching is aggravating every brain cell on top of it! In America, there is a saying, sometimes you are the windshield, and sometimes you are the fly! Today you were a fly... However, we have very knowledgeable people here, like @COmtnLady , whose advice might just save the day! With this heatwave, my bet is that the little guy is trying to escape the heat and the ants, so I would focus on keeping him hydrated and cool, including soaking him for long periods of time and finding an effective and pet-friendly ant killer. AND! All this talk about him ... Come si chiama?

He's been like this since he woke up in March so heat can't be the problem? And when he's in the garden he doesn't run for the shade, he stays in the direct sun! He is a native species so he seems to handle the heat quite well (not like me, I'm not Italian, I'm Irish) I just call him "little fella" thanks again for your helpful and kind advice.

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

Hi, thank you so much for your detailed reply, I appreciate all the information. I have read the thread on here about creating deep shade before and I know that's important so I put an umbrella over one of his hides. I do find him here during the hottest parts of the day when he eventually takes a short break. I'll attach a picture of the hide.
Oh the blue piece is just to try create a dappled shade area, I usually keep his food underneath so it doesn't go bad in the sun too fast. I mist the enclosure usually at night to water the plants and it's quite humid in the mornings still. I don't soak anymore, I figured he could do it himself but maybe I can give that a try and see if it helps calm him down a little, thanks. The ants are definitely still a problem all over the garden this year, my poor boyfriend is in the battle of his life with them and for sure I've created a monster by letting him out into the garden so often, I agree it was a big mistake, he used to be more satisfied with a little walk and snacking on some weeds and then back in his enclosure for a rest but now when I place him back in he immediately wants back out. I would love to give him the whole garden but I have 3 dogs so it wouldn't be safe. Maybe I could section off part of the garden and just let him stay out all day and then put him back in his enclosure at night. Anything for peace at this stage, for both of us! Thanks again for your help

Aww, such cute pics! He is handsome!

Regarding ants, I have no idea whats available in Italy, but here we have granules, ant baits, ground sticks and sprays. I am actually finishing with an ant invasion myself and have been using natural solutions like BugMd sprays indoors, so it's safe for me and the animals.

Sectioning off an area in the garden is a great idea! Maybe even an electric fence around it to discourage dogs' interest? Could the area be directly connected to his enclosure by any chance? So after a long day of roaming, he can come back to his house.

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

He's been like this since he woke up in March so heat can't be the problem? And when he's in the garden he doesn't run for the shade, he stays in the direct sun! He is a native species so he seems to handle the heat quite well (not like me, I'm not Italian, I'm Irish) I just call him "little fella" thanks again for your helpful and kind advice.

Great, I just wasted my hard learned Italiano on an Irish! lol

Well, if that's the case... the Little Fella just wants more estate! Plain and simple. However, both of you need to stay hydrated and cool in this hot summer.

 

[Lisad]

Aww, such cute pics! He is handsome!

Regarding ants, I have no idea whats available in Italy, but here we have granules, ant baits, ground sticks and sprays. I am actually finishing with an ant invasion myself and have been using natural solutions like BugMd sprays indoors, so it's safe for me and the animals.
View attachment 401554
Sectioning off an area in the garden is a great idea! Maybe even an electric fence around it to discourage dogs' interest? Could the area be directly connected to his enclosure by any chance? So after a long day of roaming, he can come back to his house.

He is so cute when he is calm thank you. I have tried cinnamon and diatomaceous earth but I don't think they are strong enough. That could be a good idea actually! I can try cut out an entrance hole in the enclosure. But I'd need to cover it over at night because I'd worry about rats etc getting in. My boyfriend is also a dog trainer so he could work with the dogs to behave around the tortoise but still it could be too risky

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

He is so cute when he is calm thank you. I have tried cinnamon and diatomaceous earth but I don't think they are strong enough. That could be a good idea actually! I can try cut out an entrance hole in the enclosure. But I'd need to cover it over at night because I'd worry about rats etc getting in. My boyfriend is also a dog trainer so he could work with the dogs to behave around the tortoise but still it could be too risky

Yeah, I would be worried about rodents and whatever other creatures getting into his house, too. Most def needs to be secured for the night with a cute medieval bolted door! Haha Regarding dogs and the size of your Fella, I think it's too great a risk, and I've heard and seen too many horror stories. Turtle always loses Hence, I suggested an electric fence around the tortoise's area, so nobody would mess with him. The Little Fella kingdom, here we come! hahaha

 

[COmtnLady]

I apologize for being brusk. The intention was to get your tortoise a cool place to be inside the enclosure.

How old is your tortoise?





Here is a home-made ant removing syrup that works. If you use it be sure to put it where the ants come and go, but in a way the tortoise can't eat it.

1 part sugar
1 part Borax
3 parts hot water

stir until cloudy and only with tiny lumps

place spoonful of syrup where you see the ants, they'll eat it and be gone.