Aggressive?

[Rosiek15]

I have two red foots and they have shared the same enclosure for about 2 years. They get a long great and I have never had a problem with them. They started off around the same size but now one is a little bigger.

Im guessing this is one is the male.

Lately he has been getting aggressive in general. Walking all over my other Red foot constantly rubbing his shell on her. Climbs on top of and over her. Even when he walks around biting stuff and i pick him up he shakes his leg and head really fast as if i should put him down.

Anyone know whats going on?

 

[lkwagner]

Agressive?

Time for separate enclosures

 

[Rosiek15]

RE: Agressive?

Time for separate enclosures

they have been fine together though and they sleep together eat together I've never had a problem so i didnt think that would be an issue

 

[Baoh]

RE: Agressive?

The shaking is normal. They also do it to right themselves by shaking themselves into a position to gain purchase.

What are the sizes of the two animals in terms of straight lengths?

I would not separate just yet unless it causes the smaller animal to behave in a reclusive fashion, negatively impact her food intake, or he is biting her often.

 

[Rosiek15]

RE: Agressive?

The shaking is normal. They also do it to right themselves by shaking themselves into a position to gain purchase.

What are the sizes of the two animals in terms of straight lengths?

I would not separate just yet unless it causes the smaller animal to behave in a reclusive fashion, negatively impact her food intake, or he is biting her often.

They are both about 6.5 inches long. He only bit her once he hasn't been doing that its more walking on top of her back and forth, and rubbing his shell on her. He is a lot wider and bigger built but length wise they are the same.

The one with the bigger yellow spots is the male

 

[ascott]

I know that you will not like what I have to share...but hey, you asked for our suggestions right?

You have a pair, pairs are normally a hard thing to have long term...and I know some folks will say certain species don't have bullying issues...well, I have redfoot torts here and absolutely they bully...they do a lot of mental bullying vs the type of straight out gladiator death rams that the CDTs would do in comparison...so remember, it is not natural for two torts to remain together ---they would come together for the purpose of sex/mating and not to chill and enjoy each others company....now, when folks keep them in a forced captive environment there is nothing natural about two being forced to be in the same restricted space...now, folks will lessen the immediate pair battle by adding numerous numbers...this helps because the bullying is spread around and not one is the only one forced to submit to keep the peace....now if you could imagine that in a pair situation, one will always be forced to be the submissive one---no exception, or there would never be harmony....now, that one that has to submit to exist will not thrive the same as the dominant one...just won't.

So, you may want to set up two individual spaces so that you can offer them each their own individual opportunity to fully thrive--fully come into itself--and if you ultimately find that you end up with a male and female and you want breeding to happen then you can place them together during those times...?

 

[Rosiek15]

I know that you will not like what I have to share...but hey, you asked for our suggestions right?

You have a pair, pairs are normally a hard thing to have long term...and I know some folks will say certain species don't have bullying issues...well, I have redfoot torts here and absolutely they bully...they do a lot of mental bullying vs the type of straight out gladiator death rams that the CDTs would do in comparison...so remember, it is not natural for two torts to remain together ---they would come together for the purpose of sex/mating and not to chill and enjoy each others company....now, when folks keep them in a forced captive environment there is nothing natural about two being forced to be in the same restricted space...now, folks will lessen the immediate pair battle by adding numerous numbers...this helps because the bullying is spread around and not one is the only one forced to submit to keep the peace....now if you could imagine that in a pair situation, one will always be forced to be the submissive one---no exception, or there would never be harmony....now, that one that has to submit to exist will not thrive the same as the dominant one...just won't.

So, you may want to set up two individual spaces so that you can offer them each their own individual opportunity to fully thrive--fully come into itself--and if you ultimately find that you end up with a male and female and you want breeding to happen then you can place them together during those times...?

Regardless of not liking what you say I appreciate it a lot. It makes a lot of sense when you put in perspective like that. I would rather both of my torts thrive and show their personalities, I by no means want bullying, when it as simple as setting up one more enclosure.

Now random question: If they were fine before and go back to normal should i leave them? Or do you believe regardless they will need to be separated?

---

I know that you will not like what I have to share...but hey, you asked for our suggestions right?

You have a pair, pairs are normally a hard thing to have long term...and I know some folks will say certain species don't have bullying issues...well, I have redfoot torts here and absolutely they bully...they do a lot of mental bullying vs the type of straight out gladiator death rams that the CDTs would do in comparison...so remember, it is not natural for two torts to remain together ---they would come together for the purpose of sex/mating and not to chill and enjoy each others company....now, when folks keep them in a forced captive environment there is nothing natural about two being forced to be in the same restricted space...now, folks will lessen the immediate pair battle by adding numerous numbers...this helps because the bullying is spread around and not one is the only one forced to submit to keep the peace....now if you could imagine that in a pair situation, one will always be forced to be the submissive one---no exception, or there would never be harmony....now, that one that has to submit to exist will not thrive the same as the dominant one...just won't.

So, you may want to set up two individual spaces so that you can offer them each their own individual opportunity to fully thrive--fully come into itself--and if you ultimately find that you end up with a male and female and you want breeding to happen then you can place them together during those times...?

Regardless of not liking what you say I appreciate it a lot. It makes a lot of sense when you put in perspective like that. I would rather both of my torts thrive and show their personalities, I by no means want bullying, when it as simple as setting up one more enclosure.

Now random question: If they were fine before and go back to normal should i leave them? Or do you believe regardless they will need to be separated?

Ive come to the point where i am going to separate them because he is just getting worse getting under her and pushing her around.

 

[Baoh]

RE: Agressive?

The shaking is normal. They also do it to right themselves by shaking themselves into a position to gain purchase.

What are the sizes of the two animals in terms of straight lengths?

I would not separate just yet unless it causes the smaller animal to behave in a reclusive fashion, negatively impact her food intake, or he is biting her often.

They are both about 6.5 inches long. He only bit her once he hasn't been doing that its more walking on top of her back and forth, and rubbing his shell on her. He is a lot wider and bigger built but length wise they are the same.

The one with the bigger yellow spots is the male

Their size difference is not bad at all and if the biting has stopped, you could consider keeping them together still, but if it does not dampen, separation should cause no harm and may prevent it.

What do you mean by rubbing his shell on her? Mounting her?

 

[Rosiek15]

RE: Agressive?

The shaking is normal. They also do it to right themselves by shaking themselves into a position to gain purchase.

What are the sizes of the two animals in terms of straight lengths?

I would not separate just yet unless it causes the smaller animal to behave in a reclusive fashion, negatively impact her food intake, or he is biting her often.

They are both about 6.5 inches long. He only bit her once he hasn't been doing that its more walking on top of her back and forth, and rubbing his shell on her. He is a lot wider and bigger built but length wise they are the same.

The one with the bigger yellow spots is the male

Their size difference is not bad at all and if the biting has stopped, you could consider keeping them together still, but if it does not dampen, separation should cause no harm and may prevent it.

What do you mean by rubbing his shell on her? Mounting her?

mounting her as well as going on the side of her and moving forward and back almost as if you took two rocks and slid them together causing friction

---

The shaking is normal. They also do it to right themselves by shaking themselves into a position to gain purchase.

What are the sizes of the two animals in terms of straight lengths?

I would not separate just yet unless it causes the smaller animal to behave in a reclusive fashion, negatively impact her food intake, or he is biting her often.

They are both about 6.5 inches long. He only bit her once he hasn't been doing that its more walking on top of her back and forth, and rubbing his shell on her. He is a lot wider and bigger built but length wise they are the same.

The one with the bigger yellow spots is the male

Their size difference is not bad at all and if the biting has stopped, you could consider keeping them together still, but if it does not dampen, separation should cause no harm and may prevent it.

What do you mean by rubbing his shell on her? Mounting her?

mounting her as well as going on the side of her and moving forward and back almost as if you took two rocks and slid them together causing friction

Here is some of the sequence of events going on lately

 

[Baoh]

Is he seeking her out to do this or is it only when she happens to be in his way? Both?

 

[Rosiek15]

A little of both mostly goes out of his way he has enough room to not be all over her

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[Baoh]

Maybe that is too much attention, in which case separation is an option if more space is not. If you have a large and secured yard space, they can run out there together from ~May to ~October. Inside, separation looks like it is a wise choice with the current cage size.

 

[ascott]

If they were fine before and go back to normal should i leave them? Or do you believe regardless they will need to be separated?

I do not believe once a tort comes into itself and is a dominant tort that it will go back to when they were very young...just as a submissive tort will ever become outward when being housed with that dominant tort....as there will not be an opportunity that dynamic will change....I believe a tort should be allowed an opportunity to come into itself...

I have a Redfoot tort here that I adopted, along with his roommate, that was bullied, physically and mentally and was told that due to them being this calm species they get along great...well, against my better judgement I left them together for a few days when they got here...well, one day when I came home I found that the dominant tort had bitten off the ends of the submissive torts front feet...nails all gone (in a matter of hours this all took place) so needless to say, the sad tort acquired his own enclosure and it took him at least 6 months (I don't remember the exact amount of time, but it was not overnight) before he began to cruise his enclosure, before he developed his own routine and freely roamed his own space..and his eyesight improved (likely because he was now able to eat his own, appropriate amount of food without being in fear) and he was able to lounge about in his own water dish and was able to bask at will --it is great.

I also have loads of stories about male CDTs, however, they are true gladiators and experts at the attack upon their rivals (and every other male CDT equals rival) but no need to continue to go on...

 

[Rosiek15]

They have been fine for two years and both have great personality. But I do fear something like your story happening.

I think I'm going to separate them and see how they do alone for a while. Eventually when monitored do you recommend putting them together at points and see what happens or just from now on keeping them separate? And I mean in a big indoor enclosure (in the process of making a 2 bookshelf tort table)

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[ascott]

Sure, you could do the test later down the line...but I would not do it unless the quieter one is mentally healed and outgoing...then I would consider the benefits and such,.....I mean are you wanting them to be together for breeding or because you may feel that they desire one anothers company, such as other mammals do?

 

[Rosiek15]

Sure, you could do the test later down the line...but I would not do it unless the quieter one is mentally healed and outgoing...then I would consider the benefits and such,.....I mean are you wanting them to be together for breeding or because you may feel that they desire one anothers company, such as other mammals do?

I dont care either way if they would breed or not. Its just they sleep together, eat together, run around the room in the same patterns following each other. Its weird but its like they were best friends until the last few days. So i feel like they enjoy each others company.

But like i said i would not want to see one hurt so it worries me, therefore im willing to do whatever i have to which at this point would be separation.

 

[ascott]

they sleep together, eat together, run around the room in the same patterns following each other.

Okay, so understand that as a human it is difficult for us to understand that we interpret raw animal behavior with fluffy warm human feelings attached to all actions we see.....I do it for fun and to satisfy my human desire to from time to time believe the torts really do enjoy my company....lol

BUT..if we were to actually break your statement down to raw animal behavior we would see that they are simply competing for the best sleeping spot, bet food, and best spots within their world ...and one is likely following/harassing the other by following and bullying in a following pattern....I know, it is a let down but more likely the case...a tortoise is "mostly" a solitary creature..there is no way for us to know all instances in which they may seek out companionship...we know for sex they will tolerate one another, barely....but I am of the belief that we humans will never ever truly know what other instances will provoke them, or if there are any..in which a tort will seek true companionship from another tort...

 

[Beck]

What a great thread! We talk about this a lot, but ascott really gave some good examples of interpreting tortoise behavior. Plus this is a good example of torts seemingly getting along for years, until they don't.

Both of you sound like great tort keepers. Keep it up!

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[jjsull33]

I agree I like this thread, it does give good examples of their behavior and its interpretation of it.

I have 3 reds living together, and the smallest of the 3 (literally 1/2 the size of the biggest) bullies the others, there has been no physical bullying like biting for me yet (luckily) but she steals food, and pushes against the other 2 all the time, and tries to steal better spots for basking. I ended up having to build her a new enclosure to make sure it stops and doesn't get worse and so that no one else gets fed up with it and attacks her back, while I was in the process (shes actually moving into it tomorrow) I have been separating her to feed so I know the others get to eat as much as they need. It also means that I have to build another enclosure because I don't want any pairs, If I can't do groups then it is singles, and all 3 reds are girls. It doesn't matter girl or boy some torts don't share well at all.... most torts don't share well at all. I have even more examples if we want to discuss russian torts too haha, I had 2 that lived like friends for 9 years until that ended abruptly.