Almost winter time / Freezing questions

[Seiryu]

So I should have my Leopard tort by early August. I was just curious what people do in the winter time (that get snow!) in terms of food.

I looked around the web and saw people with Leopard feeding mainly mixed greens (a lot of varietes) and little to no grasses. Then I saw their tortoises and asked myself "Why are they posting and recommending what they use when their tortoises are slightly/largely pyramiding?". Almost all the sites i've seen about opinions on what to feed during winter, have little to no grass and their tortoise is pyramiding.

This scares me a little. So I have a couple of things I can see myself doing. Whether it be one of them or all or a couple.

Quick question about grass pieces for smaller torts. How big should the grass pieces be? 1" 2" or does it not matter how long it is when I give to him?

1. I do plan to grow some grasses (Rye, Bluegrass, Fescues), with grow lights in smaller containers. Maybe 1x1 feet each. This would solve that issue i think. Would three 1x1 containers work in terms of enough to get me through winter? The tort is going to be younger than 1 years old and isn't eating just grasses.

2. Take the Crab and Couch grasses from my yard when it's still green and freezing/refridgering them so I have some for the winter.

I do know some plants cells basically break down when frozen or refridgerated and basically lose most if not all of their nutrition. Are grasses the same?

Any recommendations on good plants that can be frozen and don't lose their nutrional value much would be appreciated.

I did luck out and found bundles of HUGE dandelion greens (I would say over 1 feet long) for 70 cents a bundle! And bundles of Timothy Hay for $5, that will last a long time as well.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Crazy1]

Grasses like most greens do not freeze well but they do dry well. Squashes freeze well. I would suggest you dry some of your grasses or buy dried grasses, ie. hay for your Leo. (I do not have one so I am not sure when they really begin to eat grasses and hays) Pyramiding is not caused by diet alone, humidity and exersize are also thought to be large contributing factors, especially in the first few years.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Hi there!

I agree that I don't think grass vs. no grass in winter is any indication of pyramiding cause as a whole. I would actually say no correlation. In actuality, very few people take care of a tortoise in captivity with the type of husbandry that produces no pyramiding, more especially with Leopards. Not to say that only greens in winter is ok, but I don't agree with that conclusion.

I also agree that plants don't freeze well. Total Nutrition for Tortoises (carolinapetsupply.com) is a great supplement only of ground up weeds and other good stuff. That is an option to add into the diet besides hay and things you can grow in your house in winter.

Be careful to only buy organic if possible. I buy my dandelion greens at the health food store, organic, for $3.50 when I can't find a safe place to pick them from.

What age will the tort be? Some people cannot get a hatchling to eat hay early on. Some even have trouble with grasses, and only get the tort to eat the weeds and greens. The earlier you introduce small bits of hay and grass into the diet the better, but don't expect them to consider it food early on.

I would grow as much as you can. Things tend to grow very slowly in winter indoors unless you have grow lights and good heat. The length of the grass should not matter. If it is too long for the tort you can chop it up (always observe eating behavior to see what modifications need to be made). You may even be able to put a tray of stuff directly in the enclosure and switch them out as needed. Some get plants to grow very well in an enclosure with the UVB lights and heat! Torts seem to be able to eat stuff easier that is still attached to the ground, so you need to keep that in mind when feeding cut/picked stuff to them. Many times I have come home to find my tort's food not all gone when he usually finishes it. Usually it is either stuck flush to his feeding stone, was a piece he could not grasp with his mouth/arms, or it was too thick for him to bite off without some backwards tension.

Wheat grass is a good option as well that you can even buy in winter for a few bucks. A lot of the grocery and health food stores now sell it (organic) besides the overpriced pet stores. I would not recommend trying to freeze grass. Give it a try and see for yourself though, but don't plan on it. As far as I know it's not so much the nutrients but the texture. It just all breaks down and makes mush. Make sure if you grow it in your yard you have not fertilized for at least a year. If you grow it in trays, but organic potting soil. Fish-based natural fertilizers for example are ok.

I think a large variety of greens with as much grass & hay as you can get the tort to eat is suitable. Some weeds may also be able to be grown indoors as well with enough effort. Sadly enough I had more difficulty growing weeds than veggies/greens!

 

[Madkins007]

Ditto the drying vs. freezing greens, grasses, and hays. You can gather a lot of good greenery from chemical-free lots and yards. Dandelions, mulberry leaves and a lot more can be found in large amounts for free.

Dry it like you would dry flowers, etc.- lots of info on-line.

Dried grasses (other than alfalfa) for horses, rabbits, etc. are also helpful. Sometimes you can get it in cubes or pressed pellets from feed and grain stores. Double check the ingredients but a lot of this stuff is fine. Sometimes you need to sort of grind or crush it up over other foods, and you should make sure there is plenty of fresh water when you use dried foods.

(This is based on comments from Vinke's "South American Tortoises" book and other research more than my experiences.)

As for pyramiding, most actual hands-on experiments point to hydration and humidity, even for torts from dry places.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Ditto the drying vs. freezing greens, grasses, and hays. You can gather a lot of good greenery from chemical-free lots and yards. Dandelions, mulberry leaves and a lot more can be found in large amounts for free.

Dry it like you would dry flowers, etc.- lots of info on-line.

Dried grasses (other than alfalfa) for horses, rabbits, etc. are also helpful. Sometimes you can get it in cubes or pressed pellets from feed and grain stores. Double check the ingredients but a lot of this stuff is fine. Sometimes you need to sort of grind or crush it up over other foods, and you should make sure there is plenty of fresh water when you use dried foods.

(This is based on comments from Vinke's "South American Tortoises" book and other research more than my experiences.)

As for pyramiding, most actual hands-on experiments point to hydration and humidity, even for torts from dry places.

Tortoises that live in dry places still dig 20 foot long burrows and pee and poop in them creating a microclimate...generally about 80% humidity. It has been proven that in order to prevent pyramiding you need 4 things, in order of importance...humidity, exercise, correct food and UVB either sun or bulbs giving off D3...

 

[Seiryu]

Thanks for all the responses! Maybe I am over worrying lol. The tortoise will be under 4" for sure and probably even less than a year old (1-2"). From what i've seen 4-5" leopards are 3-4 years old, so I don't think even that big.

Ok so if he is too young to eat grasses (not as worried about Hay, i'll try it and see but I plan to mix in some grasses everyday with his greens), then greens are ok for winter-time?

I do have some concerns now though as all the grass seeds i've seen at Feed stores have endophyte (bad). These grasses I can get with no endophyte.

I havn't used fertilizers, pesticides or anything like that since i moved here 3 years ago, so not worried on that.

Grass: Crab (yard), Couch (yard), Atlas Fescue, Timothy, Rye (not sure what kind, does it matter?)

Plants: Sage, Lavender, Aloe Vera, Alyssum sweet, Aster, Dahlia, Geranium, Marigold, Californian Poppy, Hollyhock, Turnip Greens, Collard Greens, Dandelion, White Clover.

Fruit Plants: Watermelon, Strawberry, Canteloupe

Will have: Hibiscus, Hosta and hopefully Opuntia cactus soon.

Is this enough then in terms of diet, even if he doesn't eat much grasses?

I went to Home Depot the other day and was looking at Cactii. I didn't see anything called "Opuntia" does anyone know if they even sell it? Does it matter what kind of Opuntia cactii i get? Hundreds of different kinds. And can they eat the leaves by themselves or should I take off a leaf and cut it up? Leave the prickers or take off?

Thanks

 

[Itort]

Opuntia is commonly called prickly pear cactus. Most cactus sold at home improvement stores are nursery plants and as such are chemically fertalized and insecticide full requireing a clean up period. Also most are warm climate plants which have to be brought inside in winter. If you live in a northern area one hardy specie is O. humafusa but can be hard to find in stores. An excellant choice is O. ficus-indicus which would be grown as a houseplant, this plant is available online here I believe. Torts eat both paddles (leaves) and fruit. For young torts you would best slice paddle up and remove spines by scorching (though mine eat around the spines).

 

[Seiryu]

Opuntia is commonly called prickly pear cactus. Most cactus sold at home improvement stores are nursery plants and as such are chemically fertalized and insecticide full requireing a clean up period. Also most are warm climate plants which have to be brought inside in winter. If you live in a northern area one hardy specie is O. humafusa but can be hard to find in stores. An excellant choice is O. ficus-indicus which would be grown as a houseplant, this plant is available online here I believe. Torts eat both paddles (leaves) and fruit. For young torts you would best slice paddle up and remove spines by scorching (though mine eat around the spines).

Thanks. Ya he wouldn't get any of the plants until next year (the ones already started). The seeds I am growing inside (all of them). Until next year and then I can move them in his outdoor enclosure. And then even after they are outside. I will have more growing inside for winter.

The O. ficus indicus. I can't plant it outside, but only inside?

 

[Itort]

O. ficus indicus would have to kept indoors in winter in large pot but would do well outdoors spring thru fall in Michigan. A source for O.humifusa (hardy in Mi) is www.easywildflowers.com. All cactus do need sandy, well drained soil like your leo.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Not sure if a tort will like all the plants listed (such as lavendar?). Sounds like good variety though! So glad you are thinking about this in advance. Just keep in mind that no matter how much planning you do some changes will always be required. Don't let that discourage you when it happens, so be flexible.

Spring mix is a great amount of variety for the cost. For a hatchling, if you buy a head of greens that you won't eat, a lot more will spoil than will get eaten and you end up spending $2-3 for organic (at least near me). That is why spring mix is great because most humans and torts like it, and you get at least 5 kinds of greens in it. Less prep work too (no chopping and it's pre washed). There are more greens you can add to the list too if required.

 

[Seiryu]

Not sure if a tort will like all the plants listed (such as lavendar?). Sounds like good variety though! So glad you are thinking about this in advance. Just keep in mind that no matter how much planning you do some changes will always be required. Don't let that discourage you when it happens, so be flexible.

Spring mix is a great amount of variety for the cost. For a hatchling, if you buy a head of greens that you won't eat, a lot more will spoil than will get eaten and you end up spending $2-3 for organic (at least near me). That is why spring mix is great because most humans and torts like it, and you get at least 5 kinds of greens in it. Less prep work too (no chopping and it's pre washed). There are more greens you can add to the list too if required.

Thanks. And I know changes will be made. Just doing as much research as I can so I won't be running around like a chicken with it's head cut off . I did 3 months on and off research for my basilisk before I got them. Mainly because I was getting ready to move though.

The plants listed were on africantoroise.com as edible plants. If he doesn't eat them it will provide some shade and look good lol. And if he decides to nibble, no harm done.

This spring mix. Any of the spring mixes are ok? Or are they all the same? Do you happen to know what's in them? I havn't gone to the grocery store and looked yet. My local grocery stores are like Meijer, Kroger. Those are the big big ones.

And is it specifically like "organic spring mix" or just spring mix. Just want to make sure i'm buying the right stuff.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I get it now. You looked at a list of "safe" plants for an enclosure, not food plants.

For spring mix, the ingredients will vary, but include romaine, green leaf, frise, oak, radicchio, chard, endive, arugula, lollo rossa, and similar. Anything that comes in any mix is fine (except spinach) that any of us on the forum has seen, and yes you want organic. I actually alternate brands to get the different ingredients. You will just want to look that spinach isn't listed on the ingredients, or learn to identify and pick it out. Spinach is too high in oxalic acid for torts to eat in large quantities.

 

[Seiryu]

I get it now. You looked at a list of "safe" plants for an enclosure, not food plants.

For spring mix, the ingredients will vary, but include romaine, green leaf, frise, oak, radicchio, chard, endive, arugula, lollo rossa, and similar. Anything that comes in any mix is fine (except spinach) that any of us on the forum has seen, and yes you want organic. I actually alternate brands to get the different ingredients. You will just want to look that spinach isn't listed on the ingredients, or learn to identify and pick it out. Spinach is too high in oxalic acid for torts to eat in large quantities.

Well in terms of Leopards. It's supposed to be 70% grasses. The other 30% is weeds, succulents, flowers and other plants. Which is where that list of plants come in.

And you are sure everything on that list is fine except spinach for those things listed? Half of them are not on the edible landscale, plant lists I've read on multiple sites. Although they are not on the toxic lists either. But if the rest don't have high oxalic acid then I imagine it's ok.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Yes all lettuces are ok; you just want to stick to your guidelines of percentages and get a good diet variety. Lettuces will not be listed on edible landscape lists, and just because something is not included on that list does not mean it's not a good thing to eat. Edible landscapes are different than grocery greens...