This thread was create to discuss the article by the same name- http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Prepared-Tortoise-Diets-yes-or-no#axzz1TXap6GBO
Have at it!
Have at it!
Discussion: Prepared Tortoise Foods, Yes or No?
- Thread starter Madkins007
- Start date
- Status
I usually make my own mix, but for the Winter months that I'm just about snowed in I love Mazuri and feed it all the time to both my Cherry Head's and my Box turtles that have to stay in for the Winter. It's easy, fast, and I've been doing in for a while now with no ill effects. If EJ (Ed) can do it with such good results I figure it's OK.
My tort's love Mazuri and they still eat fresh foods when given. There was a time when I didn't have the ability to get fresh foods and I was happy that I had the prepared food. So I am of the opinion that both works for me and my tortoises are happy either way, fresh or prepared.
Excellent, beautifully written! 
Like this article. It brings up a point that I haven't been able to get anyone to address before. That is rancidity in Mazuri diet. Don't think there is an expiration date on the pkg. When you are only feeding it to a hatchling, it doesn't take much and it lasts way too long. I will put mine in the freezer now per the article to make sure it doesn't get rancid. I only feed it 2-3 times per week as a supplement since I try to get a varied diet otherwise, cactus, hibiscus, grazing mix weeds, ruellia, dark greens, spring mix.
Planting grapevines this week too. Would really like to grow as many natural foods as possible.
Planting grapevines this week too. Would really like to grow as many natural foods as possible.
Personally, I have taken Tortoises who were fed Vegetable diets, switched them to Mazuri, and see all sorts of improvements - Growth and reproduction are the first and foremost in my book - I've taken a few Sulcatas who would would lay 10 Egg clutches consistanly on the Vegetable diets and get 12, 14, and up to 16 Egg clutches while feeding Mazuri......Those were just clutches follwing me acquiring them from previous owners......I'm waiting to see what happens over the course of a few years on a Mazuri diet.......
I know that I've posted this before, but it really answers a lot of questions.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Mazuri-part-1#axzz1TYMtccKs
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Mazuri-part-2#axzz1TYMtccKs
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Mazuri-part-1#axzz1TYMtccKs
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Mazuri-part-2#axzz1TYMtccKs
EricIvins said:
I think this MAY be an example of what the prepared diet supporters mean when they say that it is difficult to impossible to adequately duplicate a wild, natural diet with grocery store foods and typical yard plants.
It would seem that the Mazuri offered your guys something the fresh diet did not. It would be interesting to know what that might have been.
Of course, since I am a 'half-and-halfer', I would also be curious to know what would have happened had you gone that way!
I believe a tort diet should be as natural as possible. This is however harder to maintain in the winter months unless you buy packaged greens.
I substitute my torts diet with pellets but would not feed him exclusivly on them unless it was that or starve.
They do have benefits but in my opinion cannot compete with a more natural diet of greens and shouldnt replace it.
I substitute my torts diet with pellets but would not feed him exclusivly on them unless it was that or starve.
They do have benefits but in my opinion cannot compete with a more natural diet of greens and shouldnt replace it.
Does faster growth mean healthier tortoises? IDK.
Missy82 said:
I am going to play a bit of a devil's advocate here. Forgive me!
This is a great example of the 'all natural' philosophy. The question is- how 'natural' can we provide in most of the US? To use Red-foots as an example, NONE of the fruit or greens available in Nebraska are very close to what they would eat in the wild. None of the native foods will grow here, and none of them are available, even in specialty grocery stores. Little around here is as calcium-rich, as fibrous, etc. as the native foods.
We can KIND of come close in some ways- grape leaves have similar characteristics to some of the fruits and leaves available- but needs a bit more vitamin E. In other words, it takes a lot of tinkering and research and messing about than most of us are willing to do.
I am not trying to be flippant, but to say that a bag of mixed lettuce greens or native yard plants are similar to a tortoise's native diet is quite a bit like comparing organic live-culture yogurt with high-end full-fat ice cream- they share some characteristics, but would not be interchangeable on a diet plan.
I am NOT trying to bash anyone's dietary philosophy here- just pointing out that it is not always as simple as it might seem.
Many tortoises do perfectly well on an all-natural diet, even quite far up north. The question- which we cannot currently answer with any scientific accuracy- is 'is this the BEST option for captive tortoises?' It may well be, but experiences like Eric's suggest that an 'all natural' diet may possibly be improved in for better results. Even that does not mean that a good 'all natural' diet is a problem, however!
DesertGrandma said:
I think that the only fair answer to this is 'not automatically'. There are several kinds of growth we have to consider, which are shown in (but not the focus of) this article: http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/c...sei-redir=1#search="lickel leopard tortoises"
A tortoise that adds mostly LENGTH in proportion to width and height seems to be doing OK. Tortoises that are adding WIDTH/HEIGHT without much additional length seem to be becoming obese.
Plenty of a balanced diet heavy in fiber and fairly low in calories seems to promote safe, healthy growth. Excess food and lots of calories seems to promote obesity... sort of like in humans, huh?
Other factors also come into play- space availability, bone-building nutrients, the need to hunt/forage for food, etc.
This list of possible sources is offered for convenience, and is not an endorsement of anyone.
Marion Zoological Reptile Food (Red Sticks) can be difficult to find. Our own member, Coastal Silkworms, offers it for sale- http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-New-RED-Tortoise-Food-L-K#axzz1TgxADsUR
Mazuri is widely available in bulk from almost any feed and grain store that carries Purina products. The smaller, much more expensive (but also better packaged for freshness) 1lb bags are in some pet stores, but ordering from some of our members may be your best bet. See the For Sale section for current offerings.
Zoo Med Natural Tortoise Food is pretty easy to find in almost any pet store, and is also widely available on-line.
..........................................................
Original article edited to include this info, as well as some minor changes and a couple additions to 'fill out' some comments.
Marion Zoological Reptile Food (Red Sticks) can be difficult to find. Our own member, Coastal Silkworms, offers it for sale- http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-New-RED-Tortoise-Food-L-K#axzz1TgxADsUR
Mazuri is widely available in bulk from almost any feed and grain store that carries Purina products. The smaller, much more expensive (but also better packaged for freshness) 1lb bags are in some pet stores, but ordering from some of our members may be your best bet. See the For Sale section for current offerings.
Zoo Med Natural Tortoise Food is pretty easy to find in almost any pet store, and is also widely available on-line.
..........................................................
Original article edited to include this info, as well as some minor changes and a couple additions to 'fill out' some comments.
@madkins007 that's good information. interesting that width/height is a meaningful measurement as well as weight and length
Madkins007 said:
I guess the problem lies in this -
I can't think like a Hobbiest with a few animals, or even a large collection.....
My scope is focused on aspects very similiar to Livestock production.......Bigger, better, stronger, faster......
It goes pretty similiar to this - My Breeders need to produce the biggest clutches, with the healtiest offspring they can physically produce - Those offspring need to grow as quick as there genetic potential can offer them - People don't tend to think in terms of genetic potential with Tortoises.......They think that growth is something that needs to be slow in order to be healthy, and that isn't true at all - Quick growth can be healthy growth, if proper husbandry is provided - Tortoise husbandry has come along way, but the majority of people keeping Tortoises are still stuck with those dark age concepts - In my equation, that wouldn't work.......I'd end up with some seriously deformed animals.......
For whatever reason, Mazuri gives me the growth I'm looking for with the Husbandry I provide, and quite a few other things......
Personally, it doesn't make sense to me to feed a half and half diet - I have always been black and white when it comes to stuff like this, especially with the results I've seen........There is the convienience factor, and cost, all which have to be factored into my decisions about diet.......
One thing I also do is feed Mazuri dry, and I havn't had an overgrown beak since.......Usually my Adults are fed dry, and Hatchlings/Juvies are alternated every other day.......I like when doing one thing parlays into another.......
I don't know what it is, but I do know that it works......It's hard to not notice the results, and the results are what I'm looking for.......This may change as new brands come onto the Market though.....
I lean towards mostly fresh, and try to grow as much of it myself as I can. I'm trying out different setups indoors so that when winter comes around I'll still be able to keep providing variety.
Excellent, informative article! Currently I feed only greens but a bag of Mazuri and also Red Sticks are on the way. I wouldn't want to eat the exact same thing everyday so i assume this goes for other animals as well. "Everything in moderation", as my Grandfather used to tell me.
I use fresh and Mazuri mixed with Zoo med grassland food. I feed the pelleted foods a few times a week. Boulder loves it!
I mix fresh greens/weeds, dried greens/weeds, cactus and Marion Red Sticks (my torts are considerably more excited over the Marion product than the Mazuri, quite possibly because of the color)...one day fresh greens/weeds, next day 50/50 mix of Marion/dried greens/weeds, following day fresh greens/weeds, next day chopped cactus pads mixed 50/50 w/ Marion Red Sticks (my male, Ptolemy, totally ignores cactus pads by themselves, although the ladies will eat cactus pads either "straight" or mixed), then start over again. And they have grass and weeds growing in their enclosure to graze-at-will upon, as well.
This way they don't get "stuck" on any one food category, which I think simplifies matters...a bit skeptical of a Prepared Menu Only-diet, but am willing to conceed that it seems to work for some folks.
This way they don't get "stuck" on any one food category, which I think simplifies matters...a bit skeptical of a Prepared Menu Only-diet, but am willing to conceed that it seems to work for some folks.
EricIvins said:
I thought this was a very interesting reply, and it got me thinking about several things- and please understand, these are more musings on my part than any real thought-out reply.
I wonder if the philosophy of 'quick healthy growth' works for reptiles- animals with very slow metabolisms? The article I posted earlier in the thread about growth compared the growth of tortoises on a limited diet vs. those on an a much larger diet and found that growth on the 'well-fed' torts added more to width and height than to length, compared to the other tortoises. She also discusses the thought that the comparative lack of exercise in captive animals with larger diets may be a concern.
On the other hand, this is an interesting insight into the mind of of a breeder. One of the things I have seen over and over is that different people think about tortoises in different ways- zoos, field scientists, breeders, large herd keepers, pet keepers, etc. and I am always interested in their views.
Madkins007 said:
With proper husbandry, Tortoises or any Reptile for that matter don't have "slow" metabolisms........Keep them at 78 Degrees, and yes, they have quite slow metabolisms as any Ectotherm will.........It was over 90 Degrees today, so core body temps were late 80's, low 90's under cover.......The Torts that were sunning themselves were of course higher......
Reptile metabolisms are more efficient than a Mammals when they are given the proper temperature choices.......Something alot of keepers tend to overlook or neglect altogether........
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
