Help with sick sulcata

[Rocco's family]

Hi, my Rocco has been acting lethargic, not wanting to come out of his night shelter, not as interested in food (still eating some though, and still pooping), and just generally not being himself. For this time of year he is typically very active, grazing all the time, getting in everyone's business when they go in the yard, wanting to be petted. I'm worried.

We went to the vet and she did x-rays. No pneumonia, no bladder stones, nothing visible that might be causing it. She sent in a stool sample so we'll see what that turns up. She gave him a vitamin shot and a broad spectrum antibiotic. She said his strength is good, and his startle reflex is good.

Here is the other info:
9 year old male
85 pounds
Has a 6x4 night shelter, heated to 85 degrees on average (sometimes runs a bit higher in there), humidity usually around 40%.
We let him out in the morning when it's warm enough and not too overcast (we live in coastal Southern CA, about 4 miles inland) and he has the run of the yard. No new plants or anything new really in the environment. Sometimes we take him out front to graze on the lawn but are careful about what we let him eat. No pesticides or anything.
Diet is 90% meadow grass/hay and grazing off the lawn, plus he likes dandelions, roses, hibiscus, clover. Has access to water sources all day (not in night box because he kept spilling it and making a big mess).
I use powdered calcuim and reptile multivitamin a couple times a month on his food.
No other pets.

He's still in his house at nearly 1pm- very unusual for him. (Pic is a screenshot from the camera in his house)

Any ideas would be much appreciated!

Amy

 

[Yvonne G]

What's the weather like? he might be too hot

 

[Rocco's family]

Right now it's 76 degrees and partly cloudy (not super cloudy). It's usually between 75-85 this time of year.

The vet called and he does have pinworms but she said she thinks it's a less than 50% chance that's why he's acting this way.

I know this sounds weird, but his skin (not his shell) looks kind of a paler color than usual. Have you ever seen that?

I just put some grass and roses in his house with him and he's showing no interest at all. : (

 

[JoJosMom]

What does his stool look like? Is it wet or is it dry? If he is dehydrated, he will not want to eat, will be lethargic and want to stay in the house. Has he passed any urates lately and if so, what was the consistency? Chalky & gritty or creamy? Another issue we come across all too often. The vet that gives vitamin shots. Your vet likely did not determine if your tortoise is lacking any vitamins through blood tests (correct me if I am wrong), and so generally what we see happen is they give the tortoise a vitamin shot, the tortoise is not lacking any and the injection will overload their system. Usually the tortoise will seem worse than before. Do you know what vitamin(s) she gave him? Also, giving antibiotics, especially when a need for them hasn't presented itself, will make him feel like crap. Any food that you can get him to eat, you will need to use a probiotic to help replenish the gut flora. A great one to purchase is Nutribac DF. Another issue with the vitamin injections is that it is not recommended for tortoises to ever get vitamin A injections. It damages the liver. Living in SoCal especially close to the beach, if you have a marine layer staying around longer than usual, he isn't going to want to come out if it's colder than his house.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I know this sounds weird, but his skin (not his shell) looks kind of a paler color than usual. Have you ever seen that?

Try to take a look at his tongue, a pale tongue is a symptom of sickness.

 

[Rocco's family]

His most recent stool was normal (for him at least- he's my only reference)- not dry but not runny or anything. His most recent urates were kind of toothpasty but maybe a little grit?

Yeah, the vet took him back for x-rays and when she brought him out told me they'd also given the shots. He does seem worse now. I don't know what vitamin they gave him but I can ask when they open on Monday. I will look into the probiotics. Right now I can't get him to eat anything. I even tried a piece of strawberry (we don't usually give fruit but I wanted to see if he'd take it) and he didn't want it.

We do sometimes get that marine layer sticking around. I don't usually open his house until it's at least partly sunny or at least getting close to 70 degrees.

If the sun comes out (it's unusually cool/cloudy today for July) I will try a little warm water soak and see if I can get him to drink anything. I haven't been able to get him to take any from his dish he usually drinks from. He currently has his face pressed against the wall inside his house. I will try to get a look at his mouth/tongue.

 

[JoJosMom]

His most recent stool was normal (for him at least- he's my only reference)- not dry but not runny or anything. His most recent urates were kind of toothpasty but maybe a little grit?

Yeah, the vet took him back for x-rays and when she brought him out told me they'd also given the shots. He does seem worse now. I don't know what vitamin they gave him but I can ask when they open on Monday. I will look into the probiotics. Right now I can't get him to eat anything. I even tried a piece of strawberry (we don't usually give fruit but I wanted to see if he'd take it) and he didn't want it.

We do sometimes get that marine layer sticking around. I don't usually open his house until it's at least partly sunny or at least getting close to 70 degrees.

If the sun comes out (it's unusually cool/cloudy today for July) I will try a little warm water soak and see if I can get him to drink anything. I haven't been able to get him to take any from his dish he usually drinks from. He currently has his face pressed against the wall inside his house. I will try to get a look at his mouth/tongue.

Ok, please keep us posted once you confirm which vitamin(s) he was given. Ideally when they do not feel good as your guy obviously doesn't, keeping him warm consistently (82 is ideal) but anywhere 80-85 degrees is most important. When sick/healing, constant warmth will help a lot. Fluctuations in his temperature are only going to be more stressful and slow the healing process way down. Warm soaks daily are also very beneficial. Not only will it help ensure he stays hydrated but it is soothing when they don't feel good. Once you confirm which vitamin(s) he was given, there is potential for another trick to add baby puree to his soaks for assisting with nutrients while he is not eating. But first, let's confirm the injection, then I can guide you with a good mixture of puree.

 

[Rocco's family]

Ok, please keep us posted once you confirm which vitamin(s) he was given. Ideally when they do not feel good as your guy obviously doesn't, keeping him warm consistently (82 is ideal) but anywhere 80-85 degrees is most important. When sick/healing, constant warmth will help a lot. Fluctuations in his temperature are only going to be more stressful and slow the healing process way down. Warm soaks daily are also very beneficial. Not only will it help ensure he stays hydrated but it is soothing when they don't feel good. Once you confirm which vitamin(s) he was given, there is potential for another trick to add baby puree to his soaks for assisting with nutrients while he is not eating. But first, let's confirm the injection, then I can guide you with a good mixture of puree.

Thank you!!! I will call them tomorrow when they open.

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

Hey, how's Rocco today? Any improvements? What did the vet say?

Sounds like you have "June Gloom" going on (I used to live in Ventura and SB). Sulcatas stay in their houses/burrows for 2 reasons: it's too hot or too cold outside. While we are baking here in AZ, it seems he is cold, hence he stays in his heated house. As mentioned above, I would be on top of soaking, and for a good boost, would do an electrolytes soak (ZooMed). Maybe this is a stretch, but what if there is something on his bottom parts that is not doing well, and direct application of heat could help? (Like humans put heat on their back, hips, and ladies for cramps, etc.) Mine loves bottom heat, and I have this sturdy heating pad for an outdoors lady in her house. Keep us posted!

 

[Rocco's family]

Thank you all! He is maybe a little better this morning- he had his head up, looked more alert and ate a little bit this morning (yesterday nothing at all). He's back to resting in the corner of his house again.

I'm making sure it's between 80-85. I put his water dish inside as well but I don't think he's had any. I did pour a little on his food.

So the shot was 1mg of a vitamin A & D mix. Should I try the electrolyte soak and/or puree?

I'm a little worried about the soak because yesterday it just stayed cloudy and cool here, and this morning is overcast again. The weather report does show sun and 82 degrees at around 3pm- I'm thinking wait until then? To not expose him to such different temps right now?

I can also try the bottom heat potentially. We used to have one of those but it broke.

Thank you all again so much for your help. I really appreciate it.

 

[JoJosMom]

Ok that’s what I thought on the injection. Due to the injection, I do not recommend adding anything to the soak. You can wait until it’s warmer outside this afternoon and sunny to give him a nice long soak, putting a blanket or plywood over the tub will help keep the water warmer longer. Let him soak for an hour if possible. After the soak, take him out, putting him in the sun and let him bask. At that point after the soak offer food. Even if it’s cucumber, try to get him to eat foods right now that are high in water content. Keeping him warm is key and also getting him well hydrated will help him start to feel better. For now, keep warm, soak for an hour a day and offer foods multiple times a day. With this regimen, you should start to see him “come alive” and start feeling better. Please keep us updated and let us know each day how he is doing. As long as he appears better each day, keep up the regimen. Remember nothing happens fast with a tortoise, so be patient and consistent.

 

[Rocco's family]

Thank you!! We will start this afternoon as soon as it's warm enough!

 

[Rocco's family]

Quick update: it got warm enough to do a soak and he drank some. He's now in the sun and eating quite a bit! I'm so happy! We will keep it up. My husband is a teacher so he's home right now to help me lift Rocco.

Here's a question though- how do you handle soaks typically? He's too big for me to lift on my own, and he'll only fit in a plastic wading pool now, not like a Home Depot cement mixing tub like he used to. And when he wants to be done he just climbs out and I can't really stop him. He only lasted about 20 minutes before he decided he was done and I tried to muscle him back in but he wouldn't let me. We tried cutting down a plastic pool to just a couple inches and filling it so he could go in and out on his own but he rarely went in. Now I just have smaller dishes (like large plant saucers) filled around the yard and he does drink out of those, but I can't get him to actually soak very well. What do you use for big guys?

Again, I can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge and helping me figure this stuff out!

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

Quick update: it got warm enough to do a soak and he drank some. He's now in the sun and eating quite a bit! I'm so happy! We will keep it up. My husband is a teacher so he's home right now to help me lift Rocco.

Here's a question though- how do you handle soaks typically? He's too big for me to lift on my own, and he'll only fit in a plastic wading pool now, not like a Home Depot cement mixing tub like he used to. And when he wants to be done he just climbs out and I can't really stop him. He only lasted about 20 minutes before he decided he was done and I tried to muscle him back in but he wouldn't let me. We tried cutting down a plastic pool to just a couple inches and filling it so he could go in and out on his own but he rarely went in. Now I just have smaller dishes (like large plant saucers) filled around the yard and he does drink out of those, but I can't get him to actually soak very well. What do you use for big guys?

Again, I can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge and helping me figure this stuff out!

That's great news! Woohooooo! Go Rocco!

Yeah, with the big guys, you need muscle to get them in the bath. Unless you have trained it to walk in by itself, which is the best option and not back-breaking. If I were in your shoes, I would train Rocco to go into that plastic pool by using his favorite foods, attractive flowers like hibiscus, shell massage etc. Make him associate that spot with a positive and rewarding experience. It will take time and lots of patience, but it's doable, and your back will thank you.

 

[JoJosMom]

Quick update: it got warm enough to do a soak and he drank some. He's now in the sun and eating quite a bit! I'm so happy! We will keep it up. My husband is a teacher so he's home right now to help me lift Rocco.

Here's a question though- how do you handle soaks typically? He's too big for me to lift on my own, and he'll only fit in a plastic wading pool now, not like a Home Depot cement mixing tub like he used to. And when he wants to be done he just climbs out and I can't really stop him. He only lasted about 20 minutes before he decided he was done and I tried to muscle him back in but he wouldn't let me. We tried cutting down a plastic pool to just a couple inches and filling it so he could go in and out on his own but he rarely went in. Now I just have smaller dishes (like large plant saucers) filled around the yard and he does drink out of those, but I can't get him to actually soak very well. What do you use for big guys?

Again, I can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge and helping me figure this stuff out!

I am so glad to hear he is doing better! Keep up the regimen. We use 110 gallon stock tanks. Soaking him 2-3 times a week is beneficial. Hubby will have to pick him up to move in and out. Another option is to make a cement water hole in the ground that he can cruise in and out of. As long as he actively drinks, he should stay well hydrated. Please keep posting daily updates, you’re doing great Mom!

 

[Rocco's family]

Thank you both so much!! Rocco's having a good morning- he was sitting with his head up, looking alert this morning when I opened his house. He ate some- not as much as usual but definitely an improvement. We will soak again when it warms up and keep up the routine. I'm looking at the options suggested to see what might work for continuing soaks even after my husband goes back to work. Thankfully I work primarily from home so I can be here to monitor! I can't tell you how much I appreciate both your input!

 

[Rocco's family]

Quick question- this morning Rocco had excessive tears streaming down his face. I've been taking care to really regulate the night box temps so it doesn't get too hot, and my temp stick showed it stayed between 83-85 during the night. Should I be worried?

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

Quick question- this morning Rocco had excessive tears streaming down his face. I've been taking care to really regulate the night box temps so it doesn't get too hot, and my temp stick showed it stayed between 83-85 during the night. Should I be worried?

Did you know Sulcatas are called "Crying tortoises"? To my knowledge, they do that when they are too warm. Maybe get it down to 82F and see how he is? The nine I take care of respond differently to heat. For example, the large adult male, Ralphy(40ish?), and his son Othello (3) go into hiding mode if it's over 82-85F, but the other large adult male, Rosey-Posey (30ish?) and his son Tortellini(9) are active and cruising up to 95F! My girls are similar: Trumpette(6), Buttons (6), and Lil Lily (3) are active and happy campers up to 94F, but Trinity (6) is done and in her hide when it hits around 83F.

 

[Rocco's family]

Did you know Sulcatas are called "Crying tortoises"? To my knowledge, they do that when they are too warm. Maybe get it down to 82F and see how he is? The nine I take care of respond differently to heat. For example, the large adult male, Ralphy(40ish?), and his son Othello (3) go into hiding mode if it's over 82-85F, but the other large adult male, Rosey-Posey (30ish?) and his son Tortellini(9) are active and cruising up to 95F! My girls are similar: Trumpette(6), Buttons (6), and Lil Lily (3) are active and happy campers up to 94F, but Trinity (6) is done and in her hide when it hits around 83F.

That's so funny! Kind of like people, I guess- different tolerances for temperature. I will reduce it a bit and see if that helps. I've seen him have a bit of wetness before, but never seen actual drips coming off him until now.

I love your torts' names! So cute!

 

[Alice Sulcatia]

That's so funny! Kind of like people, I guess- different tolerances for temperature. I will reduce it a bit and see if that helps. I've seen him have a bit of wetness before, but never seen actual drips coming off him until now.

I love your torts' names! So cute!

Awww, thank you Totally like people, I know AZ natives who melt and whine when it goes over 80F, and then there is this Northerner (me) who goes hiking when it's 95F Sometimes I wonder whether I am a turtle, because I love warmth and basking and despise the cold with all my being.