Lighting confusion - new setup

leotortoise1

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
33
Hello,

I'm confused on lighting. I've read several different posts, beginning to end. I read where @Tom said that the CHE were the most damaging and I've read on the radiant heat panels and the studies done comparing the different torts. I'd hoping to list what I have, where I'd like to get to and hope someone can give me specifically what to do so I can make sure and do the adjustments necessary.

Currently:
Age 1.5 year leopard - I get him outside whenever above 72 degrees for at least 20 minutes
Enclosure: Showcase cage 36 x 24 x 24 (lighting sits 14 1/2 inches high)
Lighting (all on warm side):
1 heat mat
1 spot halogen
(I used to have MVB but it would get too hot)
1 75 watt infrared basking spot set on rheostat for basking 94 degrees
(I recently replaced the black CHE with this but I'm not sure if it's accurate?)
1 100w florescent tube
Lighting is in built-in area that drops down to 14 1/2 inches
Ambient temp set at 81 on cool side

My gut is the overall temps get too high/dry with the lighting even though I can keep the humidity, I can just tell his shell gets so dry. I would like to replace my ambient heat lighting with radiant heat panels but keep everything correct and I'm a little confused.

Question: which radiant heat panel (exact brand would be really appreciated)
Question: what's best source UV light set on the day timer (in addition to UV tube)
Question: what's best/safest light for basking area at 95 degrees?

If anything else I need to get/buy I would appreciate being told. My goal is to setup the safest inside enclosure for him and I'm not DIY at all so I'd like to purchase the correct items even it means starting over.

Thank you so much in advance!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Hello,

I'm confused on lighting. I've read several different posts, beginning to end. I read where @Tom said that the CHE were the most damaging and I've read on the radiant heat panels and the studies done comparing the different torts. I'd hoping to list what I have, where I'd like to get to and hope someone can give me specifically what to do so I can make sure and do the adjustments necessary.

Currently:
Age 1.5 year leopard - I get him outside whenever above 72 degrees for at least 20 minutes
Enclosure: Showcase cage 36 x 24 x 24 (lighting sits 14 1/2 inches high)
Lighting (all on warm side):
1 heat mat
1 spot halogen
(I used to have MVB but it would get too hot)
1 75 watt infrared basking spot set on rheostat for basking 94 degrees
(I recently replaced the black CHE with this but I'm not sure if it's accurate?)
1 100w florescent tube
Lighting is in built-in area that drops down to 14 1/2 inches
Ambient temp set at 81 on cool side

My gut is the overall temps get too high/dry with the lighting even though I can keep the humidity, I can just tell his shell gets so dry. I would like to replace my ambient heat lighting with radiant heat panels but keep everything correct and I'm a little confused.

Question: which radiant heat panel (exact brand would be really appreciated)
Question: what's best source UV light set on the day timer (in addition to UV tube)
Question: what's best/safest light for basking area at 95 degrees?

If anything else I need to get/buy I would appreciate being told. My goal is to setup the safest inside enclosure for him and I'm not DIY at all so I'd like to purchase the correct items even it means starting over.

Thank you so much in advance!

There are many many ways to do this. Everyone has their own opinions and experience to draw from. I've tried a lot of different things a lot of different ways and I have my preferences for good reason. I'll share my opinions here in hopes of "shedding some light on your situation…" Haha. See what I did there? :)

1. I would not use a heat mate for a small indoor housed tortoise. I only use large Kane mats for larger tortoise living with heated boxes outside full time.
2. I would not use a spot bulb of any kind. They concentrate too much heat and desiccating IR-A rays in one small spot. I prefer flood bulbs.
3. I would not use and infrared bulb. No colored lights at all for me. Tortoises have better color vision than we do, so if you can see that light they can too. Imagine living in an all red world day and night. Whoa… No thank you. It sometimes messes with their sleep habits or makes them eat their substrate.
4. I don't like CHEs in OUTDOOR night boxes for LARGER tortoises housed outside full time. CHEs work great for smaller tortoises in indoor set up, so long as ambient temps are warm enough and the CHEs are mounted far enough away that the temperature directly under them does not reach carapace roasting levels.
5. There are no 100 watt florescent tubes. What did you mean here?

Here is a lighting breakdown I did for another member:
"Let me break down the heating and lighting thing. You need three or four elements:
1. Heat. During the day this is best accomplished with 65 watt flood bulbs from the hardware store set on digital timers. These also give some light. Move them higher or lower to get the basking temp under them correct. I buy them in 6 packs, so if they burn out I always have a spare on hand.
2. Light. Sometimes the basking bulb and ambient room light are enough. If not, use a tube style florescent strip light form the hardware store. Run it on the same timer as the heat lamps. Try to get a bulb in the 5000-6500K color range. The more common 2500K color range bulbs look yellowish.
3. Ambient temp maintenance and night heat. Tortoises need it dark at night, but still warm. This is best accomplished with the use of a CHE in a ceramic based fixture. Get the 11" ceramic based domes from Home Depot for all your heat lamps.
4. UV. Best to sun them for an hour two or more times a week. Its okay to skip a few weeks over winter and this will do no harm. Since you live in the frozen North (Okay, Midwest, but its a figure of speech…), you will need to provide some artificial UV. Several options for this:
a. Use a mercury vapor bulb, like the power sun for your basking bulb. Use this in the Home Depot fixture I mentioned, not in a small pet store dome or deep dome. Replace it every fall.
b. Use a long tube type 10.0 florescent bulb. These MUST be mounted no more than 10-12" from the tortoise to be effective.
c. Get an Arcadia 12% HO bulb from lightyourreptiles.com. These are great, but they make a lot of UV. Mount it at least 18" and as much as 26" away from the tortoise and put it on its own timer for only about 4 hours a day."

Hope this helps. Please ask more questions wherever clarification is needed. :D
 

leotortoise1

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
33
Thanks so much and YES i did get it - funny. I put just a few remaining clarifications/questions below.
Thanks again for such a detailed answer I really appreciate it!

There are many many ways to do this. Everyone has their own opinions and experience to draw from. I've tried a lot of different things a lot of different ways and I have my preferences for good reason. I'll share my opinions here in hopes of "shedding some light on your situation…" Haha. See what I did there? :)
-haha - I did get that :)

1. I would not use a heat mate for a small indoor housed tortoise. I only use large Kane mats for larger tortoise living with heated boxes outside full time.
-ok
2. I would not use a spot bulb of any kind. They concentrate too much heat and desiccating IR-A rays in one small spot. I prefer flood bulbs.
-ok.
3. I would not use and infrared bulb. No colored lights at all for me. Tortoises have better color vision than we do, so if you can see that light they can too. Imagine living in an all red world day and night. Whoa… No thank you. It sometimes messes with their sleep habits or makes them eat their substrate.
-Got it, thank you.
4. I don't like CHEs in OUTDOOR night boxes for LARGER tortoises housed outside full time. CHEs work great for smaller tortoises in indoor set up, so long as ambient temps are warm enough and the CHEs are mounted far enough away that the temperature directly under them does not reach carapace roasting levels.
-Ahhhh okay. Can you tell me the exact mounting distance to make sure they are far enough away? I am currently at 14 1/2 inches. He loves to stand right under it and his shell does get very warm to the touch.
5. There are no 100 watt florescent tubes. What did you mean here?
-Sorry 10.0 Mine is mounted too high per your email below so I'll work on that.

1. Heat. During the day this is best accomplished with 65 watt flood bulbs from the hardware store set on digital timers. These also give some light. Move them higher or lower to get the basking temp under them correct. I buy them in 6 packs, so if they burn out I always have a spare on hand.
- confirming that the basking temp directly below will be 95 degrees. There are a few different types. Does either of these look correct?
TCP LBR301050KND6 LED BR30 - 65 Watt Equivalent Daylight (5000K) Flood Light Bulb - 6 Pack
Philips 248872 Soft White 65-Watt BR30 Indoor Flood Light Bulb, 12-Pack

2. Light. Sometimes the basking bulb and ambient room light are enough. If not, use a tube style florescent strip light form the hardware store. Run it on the same timer as the heat lamps. Try to get a bulb in the 5000-6500K color range. The more common 2500K color range bulbs look yellowish.
-ok
3. Ambient temp maintenance and night heat. Tortoises need it dark at night, but still warm. This is best accomplished with the use of a CHE in a ceramic based fixture. Get the 11" ceramic based domes from Home Depot for all your heat lamps.
-ok.
- Can I ask if this could be an overhead radiant panel? The reason I ask is simply because the like the safety of the lessened fire hazard overnight I travel for work and I have people check on him 2x a day while I'm gone, but overnight the lights are on and it can make me nervous. If this is not an option I understand and will go back to the CHE mounted at the distance that you specify, it's just not my preference if there's a different healthy option.

4. UV. Best to sun them for an hour two or more times a week. Its okay to skip a few weeks over winter and this will do no harm.
- I'm in southern California. I think by your statement above I need to stay away from your option A below (not spot bulb bc it's too concentrated for my setup). I think you're saying I can go with either option b (10.0 florescent tube that I have now with the height adjusted) OR c. the Arcadia 12% HO bulb from lightyourreptiles.com mounted at least 18" high for 4 hours a day.

a. Use a mercury vapor bulb, like the power sun for your basking bulb. Use this in the Home Depot fixture I mentioned, not in a small pet store dome or deep dome. Replace it every fall.
b. Use a long tube type 10.0 florescent bulb. These MUST be mounted no more than 10-12" from the tortoise to be effective.
c. Get an Arcadia 12% HO bulb from lightyourreptiles.com. These are great, but they make a lot of UV. Mount it at least 18" and as much as 26" away from the tortoise and put it on its own timer for only about 4 hours a day."

Hope this helps. Please ask more questions wherever clarification is needed. :D

Thanks so much for the detailed answer, I can't tell you how helpful it is!
Sorry to bug you with the few more questions above.

Thanks!!!
 

leotortoise1

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
33
Oops I replied above wrong. I've tried to put my answers in the correct way here - sorry about that! PS - all the same info as above

4. I don't like CHEs in OUTDOOR night boxes for LARGER tortoises housed outside full time. CHEs work great for smaller tortoises in indoor set up, so long as ambient temps are warm enough and the CHEs are mounted far enough away that the temperature directly under them does not reach carapace roasting levels.
-Ahhhh okay. Can you tell me the exact mounting distance to make sure they are far enough away? I am currently at 14 1/2 inches. He loves to stand right under it and his shell does get very warm to the touch.
5. There are no 100 watt florescent tubes. What did you mean here?
-Sorry 10.0 Mine is mounted too high per your email below so I'll work on that.

1. Heat. During the day this is best accomplished with 65 watt flood bulbs from the hardware store set on digital timers. These also give some light. Move them higher or lower to get the basking temp under them correct. I buy them in 6 packs, so if they burn out I always have a spare on hand.
- confirming that the basking temp directly below will be 95 degrees. There are a few different types. Does either of these look correct?
TCP LBR301050KND6 LED BR30 - 65 Watt Equivalent Daylight (5000K) Flood Light Bulb - 6 Pack
Philips 248872 Soft White 65-Watt BR30 Indoor Flood Light Bulb, 12-Pack


3. Ambient temp maintenance and night heat.
- Can I ask if this could be an overhead radiant panel? The reason I ask is simply because the like the safety of the lessened fire hazard overnight I travel for work and I have people check on him 2x a day while I'm gone, but overnight the lights are on and it can make me nervous. If this is not an option I understand and will go back to the CHE mounted at the distance that you specify, it's just not my preference if there's a different healthy option.

4. UV. Best to sun them for an hour two or more times a week. Its okay to skip a few weeks over winter and this will do no harm.
- I'm in southern California. I think by your statement above I need to stay away from your option A below (not spot bulb bc it's too concentrated for my setup). I think you're saying I can go with either option b (10.0 florescent tube that I have now with the height adjusted) OR c. the Arcadia 12% HO bulb from lightyourreptiles.com mounted at least 18" high for 4 hours a day.

Hope this helps. Please ask more questions wherever clarification is needed. :D

Thanks so much for the detailed answer, I can't tell you how helpful it is!
Sorry to bug you with the few more questions above.

Thanks!!!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
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Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
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1. Only your thermometer can tell you the proper mounting heights for any of your bulbs. There are way too many variables. One person might need it 10" away while someone else needs it 18" away. You just got to run it, check it, and adjust as needed.
2. For your 10.0 bulb: Its a long tube type, right? Not a compact coil type, right? Just as you need a thermometer to set the bulb heights for your heat lamps and CHEs, you need a UV meter to properly set your UVB bulbs. I like this one: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html Without this tool, we are all just guessing.
3. (Your number 1.) No one seems to know if LEDs are safe over tortoises or not. I can't find anyone who is experimenting with them yet. Also, LEDs don't produce any heat for basking, so the ones you linked will not work for the purposes of basking. The other link with the Phillips bulbs are exactly what I use. I think I use the Sylvania brand because that is what my tires here sell, but the ones in your link should be fine.
4. (3. Ambient temp maintenance and night heat.) You can use either here. RHPs do seem a bit safer here as even direct contact with a fallen panel could not start a fire, while a CHE could… Are you using a closed chamber? I don't think and RHP will work well if not.
5. UV. If you are in SoCal, you don't need indoor UV. It won't hurt anything to run some, but your tortoise should be able to get plenty of outdoor sun year round. Even with a constantly cold winter like what we just had, I don't need indoor UV, and early February brought temps in the 80s and 90s.
 

Badkneesbond

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Feb 21, 2016
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Location (City and/or State)
South Jordan Utah
I did some fairly decent testing on the T5 high output blubs vs the Mercury Vapor bulbs recently using the Zoomed UVB meter (http://zoomed.com/ecom/ProductDetail.php?id=443&category=4).
One observation I saw was the distribution of the Mercury Vapor bulb UVB was very concentrated and focused in one spot. The Zoomed 100 watt MVB would read 140 UW/c^2 about 8 inches directly below the bulb but down to 20 UW/c^2 4 inches from the focus point. Whereas the T5 High out put florescent had 200-120 UW/c^2 throughout my enclosure from 12 inches away. So if the tort is exclusively indoors i think the florescent is a better choice in conjunction with a heat bulb.

I also had my MVB pop twice while on the thermostat, they are self ballasted so turning on and off all day can cause problems.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
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I did some fairly decent testing on the T5 high output blubs vs the Mercury Vapor bulbs recently using the Zoomed UVB meter (http://zoomed.com/ecom/ProductDetail.php?id=443&category=4).
One observation I saw was the distribution of the Mercury Vapor bulb UVB was very concentrated and focused in one spot. The Zoomed 100 watt MVB would read 140 UW/c^2 about 8 inches directly below the bulb but down to 20 UW/c^2 4 inches from the focus point. Whereas the T5 High out put florescent had 200-120 UW/c^2 throughout my enclosure from 12 inches away. So if the tort is exclusively indoors i think the florescent is a better choice in conjunction with a heat bulb.

I also had my MVB pop twice while on the thermostat, they are self ballasted so turning on and off all day can cause problems.

Good observations and I agree with your conclusions. I also tell people not to use a thermostat with an MVB…

For people who need to mount their UV tubes even farther, I like the 12%HO tubes from Arcadia. I buy mine at lightyourreptiles.com.
 

Badkneesbond

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Good observations and I agree with your conclusions. I also tell people not to use a thermostat with an MVB…

For people who need to mount their UV tubes even farther, I like the 12%HO tubes from Arcadia. I buy mine at lightyourreptiles.com.

Tom, I noticed zoomed provides an optimal distance chart for the specific bulbs (http://zoomed.com/Library/ProductDBFiles/UVB-Reach.pdf) but I found that it was more of a maximum effective distance chart and not an indication of a sweet spot. I bought the T5 HO and placed the lamp 18 inches in the tank based on the chart but after measuring the UVB output i noticed both the T8 and T5 UVB readings were higher the closer you were to the bulb. At the recommended 18 inches, the T5 HO UVB reading was around 80 (when i measured the sun, it was around 140- 240) but at 10 inches it was 140.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
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Joined
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Messages
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Tom, I noticed zoomed provides an optimal distance chart for the specific bulbs (http://zoomed.com/Library/ProductDBFiles/UVB-Reach.pdf) but I found that it was more of a maximum effective distance chart and not an indication of a sweet spot. I bought the T5 HO and placed the lamp 18 inches in the tank based on the chart but after measuring the UVB output i noticed both the T8 and T5 UVB readings were higher the closer you were to the bulb. At the recommended 18 inches, the T5 HO UVB reading was around 80 (when i measured the sun, it was around 140- 240) but at 10 inches it was 140.

Thanks for the info. I use the 6.5 meter which gives me UV index, but I have the 6.2 meter too, which is the same as yours. My 18 month old 12% HO bulbs are reading 219 at 16". I started them at 22", but I've been inching them lower as UV drops off over time. I only run them about 4 hours a day at those high UV levels to simulate mid day sunshine outside.
 

leotortoise1

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
33
Hi,
Thanks again. Hopefully these are my last questions. Thank you to everyone for all the specific guidance, it is so helpful to properly understand.

1. I'm sorry I should be more specific on mounting distance. Am I understanding correctly that as long as the flood gets the basking area to 95 degrees, it won't cause the "desiccating IR-A rays" I've been making because it's not a spot focused in a single area like my previous lighting?
2. Yes my florescent is a long tube, not a coil. I'll get the meter I had no idea thank you.
3. Sorry about the LED, I didn't even realize there was a difference and will get the correct flood specified.
4. Yes I have a closed chamber so I'll go with the RHP for peace of mind when I travel, thank you.
5. Yes, I put him outdoors whenever possible but like others have said - he just runs to the shaded parts and hides even if I put his favorite food on his stone.

Thanks again I really appreciate it!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
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Hi,
Thanks again. Hopefully these are my last questions. Thank you to everyone for all the specific guidance, it is so helpful to properly understand.

1. I'm sorry I should be more specific on mounting distance. Am I understanding correctly that as long as the flood gets the basking area to 95 degrees, it won't cause the "desiccating IR-A rays" I've been making because it's not a spot focused in a single area like my previous lighting?
2. Yes my florescent is a long tube, not a coil. I'll get the meter I had no idea thank you.
3. Sorry about the LED, I didn't even realize there was a difference and will get the correct flood specified.
4. Yes I have a closed chamber so I'll go with the RHP for peace of mind when I travel, thank you.
5. Yes, I put him outdoors whenever possible but like others have said - he just runs to the shaded parts and hides even if I put his favorite food on his stone.

Thanks again I really appreciate it!

Show us a pic of the outdoor enclosure. We might have some tips.

About 1: ALL incandescent bulbs make desiccating IR-A rays. Its just worse if they are mounted too close, or if they are more focused in a spot type bulb. These incandescent bulbs are a necessary evil until someone comes up with a better way. I've been trying to find a good way around overhead bulbs, but not a lot of success so far… They need the light and thermal gradient provided by an overhead basking lamp. So yes, use your thermometer o set your flood bulb's height.
 

leotortoise1

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Jan 26, 2016
Messages
33
Sorry one more and hopefully that's it. My ambient heat probe is on the cool side of his enclosure set at 80 degrees which keeps the warm side (where he sleeps in his hide) at about 87 degrees at night. Is that correct or should his night temps drop even lower once the basking lights are off. Just making sure on that last detail so I do it correctly.

Thanks and sorry again for so many questions.
 

Markw84

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Thanks for the info. I use the 6.5 meter which gives me UV index, but I have the 6.2 meter too, which is the same as yours. My 18 month old 12% HO bulbs are reading 219 at 16". I started them at 22", but I've been inching them lower as UV drops off over time. I only run them about 4 hours a day at those high UV levels to simulate mid day sunshine outside.
I also prefer the tube fluorescents as they are cooler for an enclosed chamber, and, as @Badkneesbond noted = for the much broader UV basking area, especially for a small group of hatchlings being raised together. It might be worth mentioning for those learning from these great posts... If you are using these tube blubs with a polished reflector hood, it dramatically increases the amount of UV being directed downward, and requires a higher mounting distance than when using the fluorescent without a reflector.
 
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leotortoise1

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Sorry had to go home on my lunch to take the pics.
1. His main Showcase Cage 36x24x24 enclosure (no idea if there's a better closed chamber cage I can get for him). I got him when he was about 6 months and I also have a Vision in 48" when he's ready, he didn't like it when I first got him so it was recommended to get a smaller enclosure and save that one.
2. His playpen inside the house downstairs, we bring him down at dinner and when we're watching TV and give him treats usually for an hour or so each day in the evening.
3. His outdoor house up on the back deck so even if it's a bit windy he can get some sun (we're by the beach)
4. His playpen for the grass outside in the front on sunny days, and we also sit with him outside and let him roam while supervised.

Thanks!
 

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Badkneesbond

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Feb 21, 2016
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Location (City and/or State)
South Jordan Utah
Hi,
Thanks again. Hopefully these are my last questions. Thank you to everyone for all the specific guidance, it is so helpful to properly understand.

1. I'm sorry I should be more specific on mounting distance. Am I understanding correctly that as long as the flood gets the basking area to 95 degrees, it won't cause the "desiccating IR-A rays" I've been making because it's not a spot focused in a single area like my previous lighting?
2. Yes my florescent is a long tube, not a coil. I'll get the meter I had no idea thank you.
3. Sorry about the LED, I didn't even realize there was a difference and will get the correct flood specified.
4. Yes I have a closed chamber so I'll go with the RHP for peace of mind when I travel, thank you.
5. Yes, I put him outdoors whenever possible but like others have said - he just runs to the shaded parts and hides even if I put his favorite food on his stone.

Thanks again I really appreciate it!

Those meters are crazy expensive. I would go to a local pet store and see if they would lend you theirs. I'm planning on making a meter next month out of a cheap UVB sensor using an Arduino board. I'll have to start a new DIY post.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12705?gclid=CIOgutq1jMsCFQyEaQodY28N0Q

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11113
 

Tom

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Joined
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63,264
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Sorry one more and hopefully that's it. My ambient heat probe is on the cool side of his enclosure set at 80 degrees which keeps the warm side (where he sleeps in his hide) at about 87 degrees at night. Is that correct or should his night temps drop even lower once the basking lights are off. Just making sure on that last detail so I do it correctly.

Thanks and sorry again for so many questions.

I keep the probe on the cooler side too. Using a RHP will even out the heat more.
 

Tom

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Joined
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Sorry had to go home on my lunch to take the pics.
1. His main Showcase Cage 36x24x24 enclosure (no idea if there's a better closed chamber cage I can get for him). I got him when he was about 6 months and I also have a Vision in 48" when he's ready, he didn't like it when I first got him so it was recommended to get a smaller enclosure and save that one.
2. His playpen inside the house downstairs, we bring him down at dinner and when we're watching TV and give him treats usually for an hour or so each day in the evening.
3. His outdoor house up on the back deck so even if it's a bit windy he can get some sun (we're by the beach)
4. His playpen for the grass outside in the front on sunny days, and we also sit with him outside and let him roam while supervised.

Thanks!

He needs much larger enclosures now. He's ready for a 4x8' indoor closed chamber.

Those ZooMed tortoises are much too small too.

Outdoors he needs to be in a large enclosure, not loose in the yard. Take my word for it, you will eventually lose him if you continue letting him wander around loose.

Also, be careful with a leopard near the beach. They are one of the species that is particularly sensitive to respiratory infections in cold clammy beach air. This means you'll need to have a nice, large well designed indoor enclosure since you will only be able to sun outside on the warmest sunniest days where you are.
 

leotortoise1

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Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
33
Okay got it! Thanks so much I'll get the Vision enclosure out this weekend and get it all setup.
Thanks so much for all the time I really appreciate it!
 
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