Montenegro T.h.boettgeri / hercegovinensis confusions

[Richard Harrison-Cripps]

Hi,

In the course of conducting T.h. surveys on the Montenegro coast, I'm finding a lot of animals that seem to exhibit characteristics of both boettgeri and hervegovinensis.

The majority of tortoises here (around 70%) possess two inguinials but also, in most cases, a clearly U-shaped humeral seam. Pectoral: femoral suture gap ratios are tending to be either more or less equal or with a larger pectoral.

From the literature I understand that Montenegro represents a zone of subspecies overlap, so I'm assuming (quite possibly through ignorance!) that a lot of these animals are hybrids / intergrades, but I would greatly appreciate any expert advice.

I've attached some shots of one individual from a survey a couple of days ago as an example of what is confusing me!

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Yvonne G]

Once again, our Hermanni guy would be the one to talk to - @HermanniChris . Also, if you go to the top of our Hermanni section we have some pinned threads with pictures that might also help.

 

[Richard Harrison-Cripps]

Hi Yvonne,

Thanks, yes I'm hoping @HermanniChris might prick up his ears! I've used those pictures of his for a long time as a guide, but my issue is more concerning atypical (as far as it seems to me in my inexperience!) combinations of charateristics of both ssps. in individual tortoises. That's really what's confusing me.

 

[Yvonne G]

He's usually very good about getting right back to us after we send him an alert. Because he hasn't this time, I'm guessing he's very busy with tortoises. He'll come on eventually.

 

[Richard Harrison-Cripps]

Thanks Yvonne. I'm in no hurry whatsoever . Any help at any stage is going to be very welcome.

 

[HermanniChris]

Hello!

Sorry for the delay everyone, I just returned home from vacation this past Saturday and have spent the last 2 days catching up with the tortoises and turtles here on the farm....I'm still not caught up of course...

Richard, what you're doing is amazing. Although I am a full time keeper and breeder of many different species, my heart lies with conservation and preservation. It's what all of us at theTurtleRoom stand for and is why we are constantly education as many people as we can on a regular basis not just about the captive husbandry regarding these animals but their place, importance and future in nature.

I would absolutely kill to be out there doing what you're doing. Luckily we got my father out to Italy last year and he got to see some T. h. hermanni there but for me, my work remains here for the time being. Can't complain though!

We just had the Turtle Survival Alliance annual symposium in Tuscan, AZ this past weekend and we had a video filmed here of our T. hermanni hermanni played at it. I was invited to speak but because of vacation I couldn't attend so we did the video instead. One day I hope to be out there doing what you're doing and filming it.

The animals you've shown photos of could of course possibly be intergrades between T. h. boettgeri and T. h. hercegovinensis but they certainly do look to have heavy hercegovinensis influence in them. With a decent percentage of pure hercegovinensis having small inguinal scutes like the ones in your photos, it is of course hard to tell for sure. Based on overall appearance I am leaning more towards hercegovinensis but without DNA testing, we may never know for certain. We recently had genetic testing done on over 80 T. h. hermanni representing 10 distinct locales and the findings were really interesting. I'll be releasing a full report on the findings later this year but to briefly give some information now, I will say that there certainly are differences between locales and the secrets that DNA can unlock are sometimes downright shocking! Amazing stuff to say the least.

This natural integration zone in Montenegro is similar to that of northeastern Italy near the Valley of the Po (Po River) where it is believed that T. h. hermanni meets T. h. boettgeri. In this location however, the presence of hybridizing or crossing is more evident as the tortoises will typically clearly lack the vibrant colors and well defined markings of pure T. h. hermanni. They are also usually larger and feature traits of both subspecies. Further genetic analysis must be done to really find out what's going on there.

Have you visited my Hermann's site? it's hermannihaven.com
Right now it features mainly information on T. h. hermanni but I am currently working on the hercegovinensis and boettgeri sections of the site since we breed them too and I'm continuously adding to the site to further educate as much as possible.

Again, I have to praise you for what you're doing out there. Hermann's tortoises in general need much, much more attention in nature than they the getting!

 

[Richard Harrison-Cripps]

Chris, thank you so much for such encouraging words. I have to admit that if I think too much about the scope of the problem here, together with the lack of institutional or social support and understanding, it becomes a bit daunting at times! That said, it means than absolutely anything achieved must be a step in the right direction.

That's fantastic regarding your T.h.h. video being aired at the TSA symposium. It must have made you feel very proud.

The ID guidance is very much appreciated. It's funny how the more you learn the more you realise how much more there is to learn! I had assumed through my very regional experience that inguinials of the size in the photos were big! Especially as some of the animals that I'm turning up have vestigial, almost invisible inguinials. Would you say that animals with a clearly U-shaped humeral seam are invariably hercegovinensis, and that inguinial presence / absence / size, together with femoral-pectoral seam proportions are secondary diagnostic features? The reason I ask is that I'm finding the humeral seam shape the easiest to be sure about! Practice makes perfect ... I hope!!

Thanks again Chris.

 

[HermanniChris]

I completely agree with you. There is much to learn and as I always say, there are no experts in this field except for the tortoises themselves.

When you ask, "Would you say that animals with a clearly U-shaped humeral seam are invariably hercegovinensis, and that inguinial presence / absence / size, together with femoral-pectoral seam proportions are secondary diagnostic features?" I would have to agree mostly. Again we are dealing with a species of tortoise that exhibits an extreme degree of variation even within given localities but without genetic testing we have to go off at least something or a number of things. The U shape of the humeral seam is also found in the majority of T. h. hermanni throughout their range and since hercegovinensis is seen as somewhat of a "mix" between the two valid subspecies but resemble the western subspecies in regards to its color and shape along with other factors, I would say it is reliable to an extent. However, several boettgeri can and do possess this as well. In fact, some incredibly large examples such as a few from Bulgaria have featured the U shaped humeral seam. Still, it seems to be seen more often in T. h. hercegovinensis and definitely in T. h. hermanni.

 

[Richard Harrison-Cripps]

Thanks Chris. This is all such valuable information for me. I understand the high degree of variability, and of course don't want to take the path of least resistance ID-wise if it is likely to lead to misidentifications, but it is good to know that the shape of the humeral seam can be relied upon to a large extent. I do intend, however, to become more naturally proficient at subspecies indentification as time goes on!

At the risk of soon needing to put you on a retainer, I have one more question! In your photo guide you mention the degree of plastral pigment being bolder and more unbroken in boettgeri than hercegovinensis. At one stage I stumbled upon a reply you made to someone regarding boettgeri / hercegovinensis where (if I recall correctly) you stated that the gular very rarely contains any black pigment in hercegovinensis ... or possibly that boettgeri invariably contains black(?). My memory might be failing me completely and I might have got that very wrong, and of course I cannot now locate the post in question. Would that be the case?

 

[Richard Harrison-Cripps]

I just wanted to add that if, during the course of your research, you ever need access to images of a large number of Balkan hermanni, in the form of standardised carapacial / plastral / inguineal / etc. shots together with location and biometric data, please let me know. I'd love the data to be of all possible use to help the cause.

 

[HermanniChris]

Richard, no retainer necessary! haha

The gular pigment has been an ongoing debate regarding all 3 subspecies of Hermann's tortoise for quite some time now and I'll admit that even I fell into the general assumptions concerning the presence or lack of it at one point. The truth is, all 3 can have it or lack it. It is entirely unacceptable to assume that just because a tortoise has black pigment on the gular scutes it must belong to one subspecies and not the other. It is pigment, nothing more and nothing less. While it is rare in the western subspecies and is generally only seen as the "gular mustache" where one or 2 stripes of black are found on the inner sides of the gulars only, spots or splashes can and do turn up on the under sides of them as well. A few tortoises we genetically tested featured black pigment on the under sides of the gulars are they proved to be 100% pure T. h. hermanni. This goes for both boettgeri and hercegovinensis as well. I will state that it is MOST common in the T. h. boettgeri though.

I would love to see some photos as I always use them to compare to the animals we have here since we know the exact origin of most.

 

[Richard Harrison-Cripps]

Thank you, Chris. Very, very useful information, which I think I'm getting the hang of gradually as I sift through through the records!

Regarding the photos ... great ... I'll PM you to avoid going off-topic here.