new hermanns fella - not eating.

[tictoc]

Hi there, sorry for no proper intro, am kind of in a panic about our new tortoise!!

He only arrived yesterday, so understandably he's probably stressed. He is a 3 year old Hermanns. He's got his heat mat on and the UV lamp, but so far he hasn't drunk or eaten anything. I've soaked a few pellets, added some grass and tried to entice him with some banana but he just sits under his log. His waterbowl seems to be quite hard for him to reach, although it is at ground level.

I did see him chomping his calci-sand yesterday, so have sprinkled some calcium supplement over his food. Would this put him off? Is it a better idea to get him eating first THEN supplement his food?

Sorry for all the questions - I am new to this.

He also seems to sit there swallowing and moving his front legs slightly, in a little paddling movement. He hasn't got anything in his mouth tho? Unusual?

Any advice appreciated, we are a bit worried about him.

We were told he wouldn't eat if he is too cold, but the thermometer says it is almost 30degrees where he is sitting, and after a quick exchange for the correct bulb at the shop he now has the UVB lamp on. Still he's under his log, though.

Am I panicking a bit too much?

 

[lezsolt]

I'd turn off the heating mat and get a basking light instead. You should aim for a temperature gradient in the enclosure. Also, I'd try some fresh greens like dandelion or clover instead of banana and pellets. The "paddling" seems typical to me, both of my torts do it frequently.

 

[bettinge]

Yes, turn off the heat mat as lezsolt said, they can burn with them and above radiant heat is what they need. I too agree not to worry about the swallowing and leg movement, that is normal breathing! Feed him greens, you can find long lists of whats good on this site. I think he is just adapting to his new home, but he should start eating in the next day or so.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't like the calci-sand for tortoises. Its too easy for them to accidentally ingest it when eating. Then it could cause impaction. I think the movement you are seeing is just him breathing. You notice it a lot more when they are babies. They move their front legs with the in-and-out breaths. This is normal.

Babies are prey, and as such, will tend to hide and sleep a lot. He will get used to living in he new habitat shortly.

What are you offering in the way of food? I'm not a Hermann's person, but I think banana is a no-no. Did his previous owner feed him the same pellets you are offering? I would buy a bag of Spring Mix. You can find it in the produce section of the grocery store. They usually don't eat grass for a couple years. Try not to "loom" over him. Place him in front of the food then step out of sight so he feels safe.

Yvonne

 

[tictoc]

okay guys thanks for all your replies.

He has been chomping on some clover out in the garden, and he's emptied his bowels so we know he's 'working'.
I've turned both heat/light sources off as it is hot in his tank because he's in the sun. He's been out in the garden for most of the afternoon though, he is a speedy fella, heading straight for the rather bewildered dog.

emysemys he is on the normal soaked pellets, and then we are offering any yummy things such as dandy leaves, little bits of brocolli etc..

 

[Crazy1]

I just have to chime in here. GET rid of the calci sand. It is not calcium It will cause intestenal obstructions, Impactions if they eat enough. He is 3 years old you say? He is probably just scared. His whole life changed when he came to live with you. You have to give him a little time to adjust. What type of habitat do you have him in? the best type of substrate would be cypress mulch, or shreded aspen or yard soil as long as it is not treated with chemical. Give him a cuttle bone, Yep the kind they use for birds this will give him calcium if he chooses to eat it (much healthier than calci sand). Offer him wide leaf greens like dandelion, endive, escrole, Spring mix is my favorite (and I think my torts) It is a mix of lots of young greens. If his water bowl seems hard for him to get into and out of add some rocks to the bottom, make sure they are bigger than he can swallow. This might help or you may need to get another bowl.
The heat of 30 C is 86 F he should have his basking area about 90-98 F or 32.2-36.6 C and a cooler side to about 78-82F or 32.2-27.7 C What type of UVB bulb did you get? Small torts feel like everything is out to get them so they hide alot. You have only had it a day or two and it will take a little time. When you feed it feed him close to where he is hiding it might help him eat.

Please Keep us updated and ask any questions you may have. And Welcome to the forum.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

A 20 gallon tank is too small for a 3 yr old tortoise and you can't get the correct temperature gradient in it. You've gotten right on advice from everyone else and mine would be to get a bigger habitat, you can get a rubbermaid tub that is bigger and better and cheap...he's not going to eat until his inside metabolism is warm enough so heat up his tank and get a bigger one, then after a few days he will eat...

 

[tortoisenerd]

Welcome to the forum! Congrats on the new Hermanns. They are a great breed.

Agree with everything above! Please do some more research about his diet. I agree typically no pellets (unless all the ingredients are such he would get in the wild, typically the only brand we recommend here is Mazuri, made by Purina, and only as a supplement, typically not daily), no fruits, and no broccoli. Think weeds and greens. If the weeds are from your yard, make sure they have not been in contact with pesticides or fertilizers for at least 6 months. It needs to be organic. I also try to only buy organic greens at the store as well. Spring mix is great.

Please be aware there are many dangers in the yard. He and the dog should never come in contact. Dogs eat tortoises. Sad but true. Even if for years they interact fine, dogs have been known to kill and severely injure torts. They should never be allowed together. Do a forum search for tortoise and dog and you may see some graphic photos to convince you of my opinion.

Unless you have an outdoor enclosure with the fence dug into the ground and it wired in for birds, you need constant supervision in the yard. Way too many predators. They also need a hide area when outside that feels like a "home" they can retreat to. One of the reasons they run around so fast when in a large area is they are looking for a safe place to hide. They need a shaded plant area, box, etc.

Sorry to be harsh, but we all just want the best for the little guy like you do. Looking forward to updates. I know this may seem overwhelming right now, but torts are quite a tricky animal to get set up just right in captivity. Also think about finding a tort vet and taking him for a check up. They need to check over his general health as well as do a fecal test for parasites. It is also great to have a vet on hand for emergencies or illness as they are much more likely to take you last minute as an established patient vs. a new one.

That he is already eating and pooping is a good sign.

I know you probably thought the advice you got in the pet store had to be appropriate, but many times the store employees don't know best. They may just be trying to sell the "stuff". Sadly, most of the things they sent you up with are not appropriate--the heat mat, aquarium, substrate, etc. Think about building (or buying) a tort table, which is basically a wood box. With this, you get a lot of floor space without the height of the aquarium. They are easier to provide a temperature gradient as well. Outdoors is always best if the temperatures are appropriate though. Remember that torts need it warm--think about how it would fell for you to be in the temperature, naked, and that is similar to how the tort will feel. They need to have varied temperatures available to thermoregulate, that is to move around to regulate their body temperature. They don't have a sweat system like we do.

Another enclosure option is a Rubbermaid or similar plastic tub. Aquariums also are problems for some torts as they can see out, so they want out. Sometimes they will keep rubbing their nose against the glass until they injure themselves.

In addition to making sure he can easily and safely get in and out of the water dish, you may want to soak him 2-3 days a week for 10-15 minutes in baby bath warm water. Use a shallow pan (such as a cat liter pan or cake pan), and put the water up to wear the plasteron and carapace meet (the two shell halves). Put the water in before the tort. Make sure he doesn't have to hold his head up out of the water. This is to help ensure he stays hydrated. In our indoor enclosure with hot lights and maybe not enough humidity, they can be on "slow cook".

Best wishes. Please let us know what other questions you have. And again, welcome to the forum! So glad you joined us! Pictures anytime are greatly appreciated.

 

[tictoc]

Crazy1 - Sorry, I just assumed the calcisand would be okay as it came in the 'package' so to speak. I am based in the UK, so will we still be able to get cypress mulch?
His habitat is about 2/3 moist peat like bedding and then 1/3 calci sand, which is where the heatmat and light are concentrated.

I will try and get hold of a cuttlebone, I wonder if you can order them online? might be paying a visit back to the petshop tomorrow.

Can I get spring mix in the UK?

With the rocks, would he then get INTO the bowl? I've placed another much smaller, lower bowl so I know he can definately reach some water.

thanks for your help, will keep you updated.

maggie3fan - He is eating now, he took a few dandelion leaves from my hand, but he only eats outside on the grass, I don't think he has touched any of the leaves in his bowl yet. Do you mind explaining what a temperature gradient is? We've got a slightly cooler end and then a warm end where the heat mat/uvb bulb is.
At the moment getting a new tank is not an option, but we will do the best we can for now.
thanks for your help.

tortoisenerd thank you for all the advice. Right, a few...okay LOTS of questions.
- How come you suggest no brocolli? I keep getting conflicting advice from everyone on diet, so I am sticking to most things for now to keep his diet varied, not that he's eating it.

I completely understand the dog issue. Whenever he is out in the garden the dog is on the lead. At the moment she is curious, but she will never be able to get close enough to do any damage to him.

So mazuri pellets as a supplement say, every other day. The rest of the time spring mix and green leaves?

We won't leave him alone in the garden. Yep we are trying to get hold of an old plant pot so we can turn it on its side and he can hide in there when he's outside with us.

This morning he wee'd and poo'd in the lukewarm water I popped him in, so he must be drinking more than I think, right?

God I had no idea a tank wasn't appropriate. We can't go back and change it now as we are moving house soon, but once we are settled we will look into building him a heavenly table with all the right equipment and bulbs!

Yes he had his first 'bath' this morning and seemed quite happy pootling in the tray.

thank you guys SO much. Have obviously bitten off probably more than we can chew but are definately up for learning and improving.

Thanks again,
tictoc.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Simply put a temperature gradient is what it seems you already have, a cool end and a warm end, his warm side should be about 95 degrees and the cool side about 70 degrees. Get rid of the heat mat and just use an over head basking light and use it like the sun. I appreciate everything you are trying to do for him, it sounds like you are on the right track. Would you do me a favor? Would you let me know if you can get packaged Spring Mix in the UK? That way if not we can stop telling you in the UK to use it...Thanks ever so...

 

[Crazy1]

tictoc, it's amazing how much care a little shelled one takes. But once you get things set up right they are easier and a joy.

I am glad you are taking the precautions with the dog. So many torts get injured or killed that way.

If you can not find cypress mulch, you can use choir and sand mixture of 70/30% this will hold dampness quite fine. Or you can use yard dirt with or without a bit of sand in it which will also hold dampness quite fine. Others have used shredded aspen but then make sure you have a damp hide area for him. Either a sponge affixed to the top of his hide and kept damp or sphagnum moss kept damp in his hide.

The shallow bowl sounds fine, rather than the rocks in the deeper bowl. You just want a bowl large enough for them to get into (soaking them or them soaking themselves allows water to be soaked in through the thin skin around the tail) yet shallow enough not to drown or flip over in.

I would not use the heat mat. These have a tendency to cause injury to young torts. They really don't feel the belly heat well.

Cuttlebones are sold anywhere birds are sold. I have found them online with no problem (USA) and most if not all pet stores carry them.

Spring mix is just a mix of quite a few young greens and lettuces. If you can not find it in the UK you can get things like escarole, endive, chicory, dandelion, also there is a site in the UK that has seeds etc. they sell www.shelledwarriors.com they also have lots of info re torts there too.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Broccoli can cause goiter in large amounts, is starchy, and nothing like what they would get in the wild (the greens closely resemble the weeds they would get in the wild and area great substitute). Same with fruits and similar (they can't digest the sugar). You can also look at information for the diet for the Russian Tortoise as they can be fed and cared for the same. Russiantortoise.org is a great site for example.