Newbie from SoCal

[mools]

Hi! I thought it was time to finally post an intro. My name isn't mools but I prefer to use it as my online alias and I am from southern California.

I am new to tortoises and knew very little until I stumbled upon this site. I have 2 baby sulcatas that I think are a couple weeks old. I have been extensively going through this site to try to figure out how I can best raise them. They were gifted to my parents on the 23rd so I had no time to prepare before they arrived. But I've learned a lot so far from this forum alone and I think I'm on the right track. I've read through Tom's guides at least a few times each and have been revisiting them to make sure I'm doing as much as I can right now.

At the moment, I'm trying to figure out what I can feed them (besides romaine lettuce and carrot) from around the house so I'll make a post about it because I need help identifying plants.

 

[Ink]

Welcome to the forum. If you search the forum you can find the sulcata care sheet with all of the information. Please post a picture of your tortoises.

 

[mools]

Welcome to the forum. If you search the forum you can find the sulcata care sheet with all of the information. Please post a picture of your tortoises.

Thanks! And yes I've been mainly looking at his write ups. This is from yesterday's soak

 

[Ink]

Cute tortoises.

 

[ArmadilloPup]

Welcome! Those are adorable babies!

 

[mools]

Welcome! Those are adorable babies!

thanks! and yes they are

 

[Lyn W]

Hi and welcome,
They are beautiful.
These are the caresheets that will help you with everything including diet and the second has a great list of good foods.

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

and

For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata...

Over and over I type up and answer diet questions and try to get people feeding the right stuff, but I find that the "norm" is grocery store food. Grocery store food is expensive, a hassle to obtain, and very low on the list of what is best for sulcatas. These tortoises are GRASS eaters. From...

tortoiseforum.org

Unless you have a huge area of land where the torts can avoid each other when they are older, I think you may have to be prepared to rehome one or have 2 separate enclosures as they grow, because torts should never be kept in pairs. They are solitary and territorial creatures and sharing small spaces can be very stressful for them which can make them prone to illness. It doesn't matter if they are male and female or same sex or siblings one will become dominant and bully the other to try to get it to leave. Starting with staring, following, nudging, mounting and any close contact (often mistaken for affection) it will eventually become more aggressive with barging and biting etc and could be fatal. If M and F the male will constantly harass the female to mate when they are old enough and that is pretty miserable for her.
They may be OK together for a while but look out for any of the signs above and be ready to separate it will save you and the torts a lot of upset later on.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

Please pay particular attention to our threads where we talk about keeping only two tortoises in the same enclosure. A group of three or more is generally ok, but two seldom works.

 

[mools]

Hi and welcome,
They are beautiful.
These are the caresheets that will help you with everything including diet and the second has a great list of good foods.

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

and

For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata...

Over and over I type up and answer diet questions and try to get people feeding the right stuff, but I find that the "norm" is grocery store food. Grocery store food is expensive, a hassle to obtain, and very low on the list of what is best for sulcatas. These tortoises are GRASS eaters. From...

tortoiseforum.org

Unless you have a huge area of land where the torts can avoid each other when they are older, I think you may have to be prepared to rehome one or have 2 separate enclosures as they grow, because torts should never be kept in pairs. They are solitary and territorial creatures and sharing small spaces can be very stressful for them which can make them prone to illness. It doesn't matter if they are male and female or same sex or siblings one will become dominant and bully the other to try to get it to leave. Starting with staring, following, nudging, mounting and any close contact (often mistaken for affection) it will eventually become more aggressive with barging and biting etc and could be fatal. If M and F the male will constantly harass the female to mate when they are old enough and that is pretty miserable for her.
They may be OK together for a while but look out for any of the signs above and be ready to separate it will save you and the torts a lot of upset later on.

Thank you for the links

Here's my situation. My parents were the ones that decided to bring them into the family. They thought one would be lonely but from what I've been reading and from a lot of observing them like a hawk... they can't live together in the same enclosure. I've discussed with my parents but my mom wants to keep both and doesn't want to give them bigger space or more space for that matter. I told her that within a year, they could be around 6 inches long and still, my mom doesn't think we should give them a bigger space and that we should wait until they can be out in the backyard first before making them a house. This frustrates me a lot because she's not planning ahead and instead going with the flow of things. We've never had tortoises before. She thought they were cute and got them from a man who just leaves them in the backyard so she thinks it's as simple as that. As matured tortoises, it probably gets easier but not without setup and preparation. I don't know what that man's matured tortoises look like or what their backyard looks like. Apparently he has 10 years experience raising them but I think it was so careless that he'd hand them out without mentioning more than keeping their temps between 70-80.

They've started biting each other and I haven't been able to get it on video because it happens so fast and it doesn't happen often. Maybe they'll change their mind if I can show them proof that they can't live together because of the biting. At the moment, my mom thinks the biting is them playing but it doesn't look like that when one shrinks into it's shell after getting bit or scurries away. I also found one of them on their backs when I woke up from my nap but I don't know how it might have happened because I just wasn't watching.

I'm taking it a day at a time, doing what I can for the tortoises while trying to not **** off my mom which, I've already done by bringing up the fishes we had for in a tank that they outgrew within a year and ended up stressing each other out to death and their excuse was that we had no space for a bigger or separate tanks. I don't want the same thing to happen with these tortoises and at this rate, it looks like it will if I can't change their mind or convince them to do what's right for the tortoises.

 

[Lyn W]

Thank you for the links

Here's my situation. My parents were the ones that decided to bring them into the family. They thought one would be lonely but from what I've been reading and from a lot of observing them like a hawk... they can't live together in the same enclosure. I've discussed with my parents but my mom wants to keep both and doesn't want to give them bigger space or more space for that matter. I told her that within a year, they could be around 6 inches long and still, my mom doesn't think we should give them a bigger space and that we should wait until they can be out in the backyard first before making them a house. This frustrates me a lot because she's not planning ahead and instead going with the flow of things. We've never had tortoises before. She thought they were cute and got them from a man who just leaves them in the backyard so she thinks it's as simple as that. As matured tortoises, it probably gets easier but not without setup and preparation. I don't know what that man's matured tortoises look like or what their backyard looks like. Apparently he has 10 years experience raising them but I think it was so careless that he'd hand them out without mentioning more than keeping their temps between 70-80.

They've started biting each other and I haven't been able to get it on video because it happens so fast and it doesn't happen often. Maybe they'll change their mind if I can show them proof that they can't live together because of the biting. At the moment, my mom thinks the biting is them playing but it doesn't look like that when one shrinks into it's shell after getting bit or scurries away. I also found one of them on their backs when I woke up from my nap but I don't know how it might have happened because I just wasn't watching.

I'm taking it a day at a time, doing what I can for the tortoises while trying to not **** off my mom which, I've already done by bringing up the fishes we had for in a tank that they outgrew within a year and ended up stressing each other out to death and their excuse was that we had no space for a bigger or separate tanks. I don't want the same thing to happen with these tortoises and at this rate, it looks like it will if I can't change their mind or convince them to do what's right for the tortoises.

Sounds like you are being the mature, sensible one and it's great that you have taken the trouble to find out about keeping sullies.

Maybe try to get your Mum to read this so that she can see it's not in the torts best interest to keep them together. Thinking they need friends is a common mistake but you only have to read all the threads from people who haven't known or ignored advice about what could happen and see how many have ended up with sick, injured or even dead torts. If they've started biting each other already they need to be separated asap.

Setting up 2 enclosures may cost more now but it will save a fortune in vets bills in the future and also save the torts from a lot of unnecessary suffering.

There is more to keeping torts than people think and if your Mum reads the caresheets she will see that - there are no short cuts to happy healthy torts and if she isn't prepared to meet their needs, sadly I think you need to rehome them separately.

Good luck!

 

[mools]

Sounds like you are being the mature, sensible one and it's great that you have taken the trouble to find out about keeping sullies.

Maybe try to get your Mum to read this so that she can see it's not in the torts best interest to keep them together. Thinking they need friends is a common mistake but you only have to read all the threads from people who haven't known or ignored advice about what could happen and see how many have ended up with sick, injured or even dead torts. If they've started biting each other already they need to be separated asap.

Setting up 2 enclosures may cost more now but it will save a fortune in vets bills in the future and also save the torts from a lot of unnecessary suffering.

There is more to keeping torts than people think and if your Mum reads the caresheets she will see that - there are no short cuts to happy healthy torts and if she isn't prepared to meet their needs, sadly I think you need to rehome them separately.

Good luck!

It'd be nice if she could make the effort to read up on sullies but the only idea of how to raise them is from that man. She didn't with the fish and they asked me and my brother to do research on how to take care of them so I don't think she will with these tortoises either. Additionally, my parents aren't fluent in reading English and passable with speaking so getting them to read the forum isn't something that I think she'd put in the effort in doing and I can only try to relay as much as I can with our language barrier. And well, my dad follows my mom's lead so even though he's listened to what I've had to say, he still sides with my mom.

 

[SinLA]

The fact is many people don't empathize with small animals. They see people keeping them in fishtanks or whatever so assume that's OK. If you tell them its not OK, they don't want to think they are doing something "bad" so its easier to say 'what I'm doing is fine, your information is wrong.' If you look on craigslist in the LA area (not sure where in SoCal you are) you will see zillions of tortoises for sale. Most will die. All those babies in the photos, they will die. They will die pretty unhappy deaths, but people don't care. You can try doing analogies (you wouldn't keep a dog in a 2' x 2' cage in your living room its whole life) but in the end, she has to want do the right thing. It doesn't sound like she does, so all you can do is try your best to mitigate it. But most likely one tort will kill the other and she will either learn from it, or shrug and blame something else, and move on to the next thing. But good on you for trying...

 

[KarenSoCal]

Hello!

You've already been told that your mom's notions willl end tragically for these 2 babies. But first and foremost, I want to congratulate you for trying so hard to convince your parents. It can be very difficult to do that, and you're willing to try. Good for you!

The more information you have, the better prepared you are to answer any question that may come up. In that spirit, I have more links for you. More fuel for the fire so to speak.

Beginner Mistakes

To comment on Tom's article, go here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-split-Beginner-Mistakes#axzz1tG8s05M5 Over the years many of us, myself included, have made many of these mistakes, and we have certainly seen them made many times by others. With springtime upon us and many new...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Signs of bullying in young tortoises

'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one. Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Why not to keep 2 tortoises together - a lesson learned the hard way

This is a copy/paste of an article I wrote on my blog last year. I've seen several new keepers ask the question of whether they should get a 'friend' for their tortoise, and so rather than keeping on linking to my blog (which feels kinda self-promoting, which is not my intent), I am creating a...

tortoiseforum.org

Another "why not" to keeping tortoises in pairs.

It suppresses sexual expression. Two Indian Star tortoises kept together since they were babies were at about a third to half grown. The "female" was a bit smaller and more pyramided, but not grossly so for say a leopard tortoise, so certainly not an Indian Star they were within a millimeters...

www.tortoiseforum.org

 

[mools]

Hello!

You've already been told that your mom's notions willl end tragically for these 2 babies. But first and foremost, I want to congratulate you for trying so hard to convince your parents. It can be very difficult to do that, and you're willing to try. Good for you!

The more information you have, the better prepared you are to answer any question that may come up. In that spirit, I have more links for you. More fuel for the fire so to speak.

Beginner Mistakes

To comment on Tom's article, go here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-split-Beginner-Mistakes#axzz1tG8s05M5 Over the years many of us, myself included, have made many of these mistakes, and we have certainly seen them made many times by others. With springtime upon us and many new...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Signs of bullying in young tortoises

'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one. Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Why not to keep 2 tortoises together - a lesson learned the hard way

This is a copy/paste of an article I wrote on my blog last year. I've seen several new keepers ask the question of whether they should get a 'friend' for their tortoise, and so rather than keeping on linking to my blog (which feels kinda self-promoting, which is not my intent), I am creating a...

tortoiseforum.org

Another "why not" to keeping tortoises in pairs.

It suppresses sexual expression. Two Indian Star tortoises kept together since they were babies were at about a third to half grown. The "female" was a bit smaller and more pyramided, but not grossly so for say a leopard tortoise, so certainly not an Indian Star they were within a millimeters...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Thank you for the links! I will continue to try and educate them.

 

[Lyn W]

I'm so sorry for your situation and for the torts.
There is so much bad advice being passed around by people who haven't a clue how to look after torts and sounds like the man who gave these to your Mum is one of them.
Everyone here loves torts and many have decades of experience and taken part in research to improve their welfare so they really know what they are talking about.

Torts could live to be over 100 with the correct care but if your parents don't follow the advice in the caresheets and links I can only see that the torts will suffer and things will end badly for them.

Do your Mum and Dad know that they will need heating and uvb provided all through the winter? They are not a hibernating species and can't live outside even as adults unless they have an insulated and heated home because they need to be kept at certain temps 24/7 all year around, or they will die from the cold which could cause respiratory infections etc.

If that is not possible financially, especially with energy costs rising, then please persuade them to rehome them to someone who will give them a better chance of life.

 

[mools]

I'm so sorry for your situation and for the torts.
There is so much bad advice being passed around by people who haven't a clue how to look after torts and sounds like the man who gave these to your Mum is one of them.
Everyone here loves torts and many have decades of experience and taken part in research to improve their welfare so they really know what they are talking about.

Torts could live to be over 100 with the correct care but if your parents don't follow the advice in the caresheets and links I can only see that the torts will suffer and things will end badly for them.

Do your Mum and Dad know that they will need heating and uvb provided all through the winter? They are not a hibernating species and can't live outside even as adults unless they have an insulated and heated home because they need to be kept at certain temps 24/7 all year around, or they will die from the cold which could cause respiratory infections etc.

If that is not possible financially, especially with energy costs rising, then please persuade them to rehome them to someone who will give them a better chance of life.

No, they do not and I only recently learned yesterday from browsing the forum that sulcatas don't hibernate (kind of relieving because I'd be too anxious to attempt letting an animal hibernate). With the colder season coming in soon, I am getting more worried. Heating is one thing I will have to bring up to them + cost. Temps in my room have been in the 80s-90s so they're in my room for most of the day and all night. At the moment, my dad is gathering things to make a better enclosure. I will have to discuss lighting fixtures etc. with him because I'm not sure if he got that from looking at Tom's chambers in one of the guides.

I think that we definitely can support them financially but I don't think they know that it's not just food we'd have to buy to maintain them. And I don't know what they have planned for the future but it seems like not much. Technically our backyard is okay sized for both sulcatas (500 sq ft each) when they are fully grown but even then, I don't know if they'll be happy with having their own halves and if they see each other I don't know what kind of chaos or damage will ensue. 😣

There's a lot to be discussed..

 

[SinLA]

I think it might help to focus on the short term needs. Lets HOPE these babies get to the situation where they are adults and need space and separating. Right now, the odds aren't in the favor for making it that far, so focus on small things first - keeping them at the right temperature and well feed, etc. If your parents don't do that, you're not really going to have to worry about the space requirements as adults.

 

[mools]

I think it might help to focus on the short term needs. Lets HOPE these babies get to the situation where they are adults and need space and separating. Right now, the odds aren't in the favor for making it that far, so focus on small things first - keeping them at the right temperature and well feed, etc. If your parents don't do that, you're not really going to have to worry about the space requirements as adults.

I agree and I have been focusing on their short term needs. But I can't not think about the long term. Will discuss more with them tonight..

 

[Lyn W]

Don't forget to stress that because they have to be housed separately that will be double the lighting and heating needed - 2 lots of everything.

 

[Evanstorts]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

Please pay particular attention to our threads where we talk about keeping only two tortoises in the same enclosure. A group of three or more is generally ok, but two seldom works.

Y 3?