Ploughshare torts

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://www.journalmcd.com/index.php/mcd/article/view/mcd.v6i2.3/257

For a whole different point of view about bet hedging and 'assurance' colonies, check out this article from inside the zone of yniphs.

Will

---

http://ecodes2004.ar.tripod.com/pdfs/pedrono-wildcaptive.pdf from the bibliography of the last post.

This is the article that brings a critical eye to the idea of matching managed wild and captive groups as if one giant (both wild and captive as one) group.

Will

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Thanks for link Will. I will take me sometime to read it. I'm a bit lazy to see all those graphs during holiday time

 

[Anthony P]

Seems to me that we should hedge our bets. Obviously you don't want to take these torts from the wild but if it were possible for private collectors to breed these torts and offer them for sale then I'd think their cb populations would have to "skyrocket" relatively speaking. How much would a ploughshare hatchling go for? 2000, 3000, more? That would be a big incentive to produce. Maybe I'm a pessimist but I don't think these torts will survive very far into the future in their wild habitat. I don't think very many species will ultimately survive. Not that we shouldn't try to help them but we should be prepared for this. Better to have them in captivity than extinct, right?

I'm just a novice but that is my thinking.

The special said a ploughshare could fetch 60,000 bucks. Again, this depends on where they are being purchased.

I thought the special did a great job, in 12 or 13 min, of breaking down this stuff that we love, so the general public can realize what we already know. Eric Goode does some amazing stuff and we should all be grateful that one rich dude shares our interests and is helping in ways the vast majority of us can't.

 

[ayS]

I love this thread.

 

[Tortus]

I commend those who want to breed species like ploughshares and radiated in hopes of returning them to the wild.

But really, as the interviewer in the 60 minutes episode pointed out, is there a point?

Between poachers and loss of habitat, these tortoises are destined for extinction in the wild. Madagascar is a poor nation and tortoise conservation is super-low on their list of priorities.

If people want to save these tortoises from extinction, just so they can be around for our viewing pleasure, then they should remove whatever tortoises are left from the wild and put them in breeding programs to be distributed throughout the world. If not they'll be gone. Conservation to keep wild populations is futile unless someone can completely squash poaching and stop the destruction of their natural habitat.

It doesn't seem like that will ever happen. What Madagascar needs to do is make the penalties for poaching endangered tortoise species not worth the rewards. A minimum sentence of 20 years or some other ridiculous number that would deter people from even considering it. That still wouldn't stop habitat destruction, but it may at least help.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

I happen to open the link from the picture posted here by Radiated, TFO member from China, in the Galapagos section today. Below is an article which I google translated for people to understand more of Asian tortoise market...

"Angola Loca tortoises dubbed "the king of the tortoises reputation, is the ultimate dream of many Kiyu. With the continuous improvement of breeding technology, merchants increase in the number of market competition, Angola and we are getting closer. Angola is now selling a lot, the price also declined. 2006, when I began to raise tortoises radiation at the time the price is very high now down by half, Angola breeding difficulty high price cuts will not be this fast, but we can also look ahead to the future, and we talk about how to choose Angola.
1 not vote for big election small
Angola Loca tortoises are strictly protected in the Falklands, but driven by high profits, every year there are still a lot of adult Angola have been smuggled into the domestic, for the protection of wild Ann brother of purpose, and we should not buy wild adult Angola. Addition, wild Angola has been completely adapt to the environment of the Falklands this environment, feeding the family is unable to create, although the turtle does not seem to be dead but perhaps never will not adapt to the new environment. Too small Angola feeding difficult, due to improper feeding lead to the death of a large number, money not fall from the sky, it is best not to take the risk. Personally think plastron 8-15 cm of Angola is the ideal choice.
2, Angola not like
a lot of people feel encore appearance are the same, but in reality it is not. Said first size, the election is round, the ideal ratio of length, width and plastron back high (1:1:1). Angola are higher on the back, but the body long, round and rare, since the turtles spend so much money to buy it is recommended not to worry the patient a round. Say body color, it was said that Angola yellow, the better, some say the uniform color shades vary good, I feel these two rows, that is, do not buy the body color black. Body color and light, the families the feeding that use sunlamps turtle they will inevitably become black, a long time is the briquettes is not golden goal. There are lines and whether pyramiding: to pick delicate, dense growth lines, wide Road of grain only show that the hormone did not eat long too fast, physique certainly no better. The pyramiding of small Angola must not buy, first, some turtles pyramiding genes, that is acquired can not be changed. Family rearing environment, the time to buy is not pyramiding slight pyramiding can not be avoided in the breeding process, if you buy only 6,7 cm pyramiding small security is estimated to grow up not like basketball like a meteor hammer.
3,
is the personalities very important Yanggui enjoy the fun of interactive and turtle growth, size and texture often is the pursuit of the players, and the real boutique turtles also rare in the market due to the high prices are buyers scheduled. We want to buy a good health and character tortoises, health is the premise of the character is very important, the character of the turtle can not completely change can improve. In the the original habitat Angola only active in the morning and late afternoon, most of the time hiding in the bushes, so sulcata, red-footed tortoises and lively Angola. The larvae Angola is unsociable, sensitive to environmental changes. I keep only the first encore is very lively so ever doubted this claim, so six months after purchase second only (painful) lessons really do not love animals, but the original has raised four radiation does not a way, so be sure to purchase a lively, not afraid of the people of Angola, or better to buy an encore model."

It's obvious that the writer telling that more and more Angola (Yniphora) are available in market, though not as fast as Radiated tortoise. Ignorant people like Eric Goode, who still fails to breed this species up to this day, certainly should learn from the Chinese how to raise very smooth tortoise in captivity instead of claiming them puncturing and eating rare tortoises' livers. Oh, I also happen to open some pictures from the Chinese forum, and they indeed raise excellent smooth aldabra in captivity. Just as smooth as Greg's aldabra

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Thanks Yellow Turtle,

I spend much time fooling around with google translate to search for what is going on in the non-English part of the world. Darn internet though keeps truncating searches by the location of the server farm you are most near.

There is a huge radiated and egyptian tortoise crowd in Moscow, but hard to get into, as police there are so into shaking everybody down, that few people talk much about there pets. Stars in Moscow are almost inexpensive.

Maybe you could offer the actual links you get sometime?

Will

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Will, I open the link from the picture in Galapagos thread. It looks like a major forum for aldabra in China, although I found people speaking of radiated and yniphora as well. Below is the link.

http://www.aldabra.cn/forum.php

 

[RedfootsRule]

I commend those who want to breed species like ploughshares and radiated in hopes of returning them to the wild.

But really, as the interviewer in the 60 minutes episode pointed out, is there a point?

Between poachers and loss of habitat, these tortoises are destined for extinction in the wild. Madagascar is a poor nation and tortoise conservation is super-low on their list of priorities.

If people want to save these tortoises from extinction, just so they can be around for our viewing pleasure, then they should remove whatever tortoises are left from the wild and put them in breeding programs to be distributed throughout the world. If not they'll be gone. Conservation to keep wild populations is futile unless someone can completely squash poaching and stop the destruction of their natural habitat.

It doesn't seem like that will ever happen. What Madagascar needs to do is make the penalties for poaching endangered tortoise species not worth the rewards. A minimum sentence of 20 years or some other ridiculous number that would deter people from even considering it. That still wouldn't stop habitat destruction, but it may at least help.

What Madagascar needs to do is what african wildlife preserves do. Hire trained trigger-happy gunman who are authorized to use lethal force to whatever idiotic poacher has the idea they will kill a rhino for the horn within the preserve. No trial necessary.
The problem is, that really won't ever happen.
It is a sad point, however. Madagascar itself is a plummeting eco-system, from my point of view. Taking just one seemingly insignificant species out of a well-balanced food chain can have catastrophic results. Taking 50 out, as is the case of Madagascar, basically dooms it. There will be no Madagascar in 20 years.
Just like with snakes and roads.....Ripple effect. We build roads because we want to make a 5 hour trip 15 minutes shorter. Snakes come onto road. Snakes (or box turtles) get squished, or run over by someone with the typical human feeling to prove their dominance over a small reptile by smashing them with a 3000-pound piece of metal moving at 60 MPH, or because of their uneducated fear and thus hatred of the "cold, piercing eyes" of a snake. Snake stays dead on road. Scavengers come. Big vulture swoops down to enjoy the food when a car hits it. Scavengers die. Or, driver of car avoids hitting the scavenger and causes harm to themself. Studys show there is a serous population decline in many snakes, and consequently, other species.
Hence the meaning of a ripple effect.

Madagascar is a doomed cause. I want to see them in 20 years, but I don't want to see them just for our personal enjoyment. I want to see them in the wild, but this won't happen. Can we take them all away to assurance colonies? Sounds good. Sounds like the only solution. Question is, are the several hundred left enough to ensure a future for them? I guess we have to hope.
There are to many unanswered questions. I don't know if there is an answer to saving the ploughshare.

 

[tortoises101]

I commend those who want to breed species like ploughshares and radiated in hopes of returning them to the wild.

But really, as the interviewer in the 60 minutes episode pointed out, is there a point?

Between poachers and loss of habitat, these tortoises are destined for extinction in the wild. Madagascar is a poor nation and tortoise conservation is super-low on their list of priorities.

If people want to save these tortoises from extinction, just so they can be around for our viewing pleasure, then they should remove whatever tortoises are left from the wild and put them in breeding programs to be distributed throughout the world. If not they'll be gone. Conservation to keep wild populations is futile unless someone can completely squash poaching and stop the destruction of their natural habitat.

It doesn't seem like that will ever happen. What Madagascar needs to do is make the penalties for poaching endangered tortoise species not worth the rewards. A minimum sentence of 20 years or some other ridiculous number that would deter people from even considering it. That still wouldn't stop habitat destruction, but it may at least help.

What Madagascar needs to do is what african wildlife preserves do. Hire trained trigger-happy gunman who are authorized to use lethal force to whatever idiotic poacher has the idea they will kill a rhino for the horn within the preserve. No trial necessary.
The problem is, that really won't ever happen.
It is a sad point, however. Madagascar itself is a plummeting eco-system, from my point of view. Taking just one seemingly insignificant species out of a well-balanced food chain can have catastrophic results. Taking 50 out, as is the case of Madagascar, basically dooms it. There will be no Madagascar in 20 years.
Just like with snakes and roads.....Ripple effect. We build roads because we want to make a 5 hour trip 15 minutes shorter. Snakes come onto road. Snakes (or box turtles) get squished, or run over by someone with the typical human feeling to prove their dominance over a small reptile by smashing them with a 3000-pound piece of metal moving at 60 MPH, or because of their uneducated fear and thus hatred of the "cold, piercing eyes" of a snake. Snake stays dead on road. Scavengers come. Big vulture swoops down to enjoy the food when a car hits it. Scavengers die. Or, driver of car avoids hitting the scavenger and causes harm to themself. Studys show there is a serous population decline in many snakes, and consequently, other species.
Hence the meaning of a ripple effect.

Madagascar is a doomed cause. I want to see them in 20 years, but I don't want to see them just for our personal enjoyment. I want to see them in the wild, but this won't happen. Can we take them all away to assurance colonies? Sounds good. Sounds like the only solution. Question is, are the several hundred left enough to ensure a future for them? I guess we have to hope.
There are to many unanswered questions. I don't know if there is an answer to saving the ploughshare.

There's certainly room for improvement in Madagascar but it's not a doomed situation. There have been recent discoveries of new lemur populations and local villagers are using insect protein to replace lemur protein. In 2003, the president Marc Ravalomanana labelled 10% of Madagascar's land as under protection (Durban Vision). Recently in August, a new park called Makira was created that is now the largest protected area in Madagascar, covering 372 470 acres. Another massive park, Masaola, is recognized as a model for conservation in Madagascar because of its economic activities that provide needs for the 45000 inhabitants without damaging the ecosystem.

About the tortoises, the people in the richer countries need to be educated to weaken the demand for poaching. In addition, there need to be more armed Malagasy protecting the tortoise habitats and stricter punishments. Assurance colonies in the tortoises' habitat such as Project Angonoka are useful for eventual re-wilding if there is still habitat left and poaching stamped out. Maybe this can be done quickly enough to bring the tortoises back.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

It so happens a bunch of trigger happy 'police' did shoot up several people alleged to be involved with some missing ploughshare torts, in the early 1990's, a well covered issue of the time. I think Chicago Herp Bulletin had the best overall narrative of the event.

This is not always a good plan.

Will

 

[Yellow Turtle]

It so happens a bunch of trigger happy 'police' did shoot up several people alleged to be involved with some missing ploughshare torts, in the early 1990's, a well covered issue of the time. I think Chicago Herp Bulletin had the best overall narrative of the event.

This is not always a good plan.

Will

I should agree with Will. While taking strict action through lethal force seem like a good option to stop poaching. Please take a step back and give some more thought for a while.

Is tortoise's life, however rare it is in this world is more valuable than human's life? You can go all out to prevent extinction through a lot of technology manipulation for this species, but if they going to extinct in their native habitat, so be it. You can't prevent poor nation to actually stop poaching when you can't even do anything to help the people there. Develop the country, and they will one day care more and more of their natural resources.

For ploughshare, extinction in native habitat is possibility, but I never think they will extinct from the world seeing the progress being made by Durrell alone and not counting other efforts from breeders or any care center.

 

[RedfootsRule]

Yellow Turtle,
We think differently on that matter. I've had my thoughts for years, and while people think I'm insane, heres my train of thought; an animal is innocent. There are capable of no evil, hate, senseless killing. They are pure.
Humans are often murderous, evil, and hateful. They are not pure. Now, nobody accuse me of labeling the human race; but there are a lot of them. And most often, these are the poachers.
Helping the people in the country sounds good. That won't stop poachers. Think of it with big cats; those that hunt them, they do not do it simply to feed their families. They do it to take the skin of a beautiful Amur leopard, hang it on their wall, and say that was one of 45 and I killed it. And then call it sport.
Now, of course, it is an entirely different story for those that do it to SURVIVE. These people are the ones you can help with development of the country. But they do not make up the majority.
In short, I would rather see the death of a few poachers, who KNEW very well they were breaking laws, KNEW they were killing another innocent creature, then the theft or death of critically endangered animals.
But those are just my feelings.

Will the ploughshare ever be extinct? Probably not. But its likely it will be extinct in the wild...

And I just now realize we're straying off topic. I'll stop now .

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Good and Evil, anthropomorphism anyone? I did some research in-situ in Viet Nam, and met a good number of poachers. The cross over to a society with a stronger economy is here in the US people who rummage for aluminum cans out of the trash. The poachers do not take stock of their step in the pathway of what will become of the animal, much like the can collector does not consider those cans may become airplane fuselage.

Indeed some major south-end of north facing animal people from developed countries have exploited what I would call greed in folks from the exotic places some chelonians come from. But for the most part the people in the field picking up animals are not driving home in a jaguar, indeed it is a subsistance lifestyle.

One of the videos on youtube shows R.H. saying oh yeah, it's all about big bucks, but the field collector is literally dirt poor, and in Madagascar dirt poor is more poor than near anyone in the US has experienced.

There is a certain arrogance about being from a developed country and going to where poor is the standard and dictating how things should be. I ran an NGO that took that into consideration, I feel comfortable with my assertion.

The rhino poachers are often hand selected militia equipped for that sole purpose, they are not the very poor individuals who happen across some semi valuable plant or animal. Plougshares may be getting to the point of being collected by 'hired gun' poachers, but as best as I can tell it is still more opportunistic than conscripted - I am very willing to be wrong on this.

I know emotions run high with these POV, and I have spent a good long time considering my own POV. It's right to enter the conflict with/against poachers when seeking to change what becomes of animals in another country, I don't think it is right to autocratically dictate what that other country should do.

It's like that office door sign, "everyone brings a smile to our face when they use our door, some when entering and some when exiting". This too is true for NGO's in non-home countries. For whatever reason my few encounters with park directors and wildlife law administrators have given me some rather frank conversation on these things. For the most part these people know what the phuck the deal is, they don't have a means to the end they want, and like anyone in any job they too get frustrated with BS. Some know-it-all from the US just makes their day all the more phucked.

Will

 

[RedfootsRule]

Goodness gracious....Every time we come to a conversation even considering the animals' well-being, its a race to see who can be the first to hurl, "anthromomorphosist!"

Being that I'm not a poacher, I can't say for sure. But whether the poachers/collectors (or whatever we want to call them) are in poverty or prosperity, "hired-guns" or conscripted, they are knowingly breaking the law, knowingly taking the life of an animal,; the life of a critically endangered animal that has enough trouble without them hunting it.
Now, everyone can accuse me of all the personification, anthropomorphism, etc. they want to. Its my POV and nothing more.

 

[Radiated]

Wow what happened on this thread...haha. really interesting to read all the comments and thoughts

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Wow what happened on this thread...haha. really interesting to read all the comments and thoughts

What is happening is... that the world's tortoise are going to extinct because a rich guy thinks that you guys in China puncturing rare torts' shells to suck on their livers

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Goodness gracious....Every time we come to a conversation even considering the animals' well-being, its a race to see who can be the first to hurl, "anthromomorphosist!"

Being that I'm not a poacher, I can't say for sure. But whether the poachers/collectors (or whatever we want to call them) are in poverty or prosperity, "hired-guns" or conscripted, they are knowingly breaking the law, knowingly taking the life of an animal,; the life of a critically endangered animal that has enough trouble without them hunting it.
Now, everyone can accuse me of all the personification, anthropomorphism, etc. they want to. Its my POV and nothing more.

You see that is just it, they are "KNOWINGLY" providing for their self and their family, they are knowingly doing something that the local authorities don't have the heart to enforce, so maybe it is not so illegal after all, they do not really get the concept of exceedingly rare or "endangered animal". Law breaking is something that happens in degrees, a law to protect an animal is not as strong as a law between two people (hence anthropomorphism).

It's like someone using a rare stamp for actual postage, the value is relative, shall I keep this stamp, sell it, or just lick it and send my mail. If tomorrow is a debatable topic (will I see it or not), but right here now that letter needs to be sent, well then that stamp is licked.

Your POV is your POV, which tells more about you than the world. Birds have a different POV than a fish, but from these POV's we can tell which is the bird and which is the fish, get me?

Will

 

[RedfootsRule]

They very well understand the concept of exceedingly rare...Why else would they be trying to collect them so much? If they didn't, they would be taking every single beetle that crawls on the street. They're collecting because they know very well of the rarity, and know that rarity means a large sum of money.
Humans have the arrogance to believe we are the most valuable creature on this planet; that we are somehow more important then the rest.
My point being, they are KNOWINGLY persecuting a helpless animal for their own selfish purposes, when there are other means to provide for themselves.

Will, I completely respect your opinion, and you have the right to have it. This is mine.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

So, the Baobab trees are cut and used for charcoal production - perhaps it could be argued they are pretty rare too, they are, and take a good long time to grow to towering building size. The forest is the grocery store, and provides all you need, some things are sold for cash, some are eaten, some left as they are.

I was the primary distributor of Bill McCord's China market video produced in the mid 1990's, I sent out several hundred of them. One time it was shown at an NYTTS meeting and frankly people became completely unglued. I am glad that no Chinese people were in the audience that day. The point, if you have not seen the video, is that chelonians are live butchered. They semi struggle, the whole image is gory like any animal processing, and could be interpreted as people being outright sadistic in the manner that they go about butchering the food item. The fact is all animal's are butchered for us to eat. Fish by far get it the worst, because not only are they cut up alive, they were first pulled out of the very environment that sustains them before they are cut up. Imagine being held underwater as an air breather, and then being butchered.

I do not think the people processing the chelonians are sadistic at all, I imagine they would rather not have the turtle struggling the whole of the time they are doing their work. These individuals simply have different sensibilities, than I have.

So much like those incidental harvesters and poachers, they, those who live butcher chelonians have different sensibilities. They are not good or evil, complete construct words BTW. I do not agree with those values, I am not a "tragedy of the commons*" kind of man.

Will

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrett_Hardin