PM Answer

[Tom]

A forum member, who shall remain nameless, PMd me asking my thoughts on humidity and Mazuri feeding in regards to pyramiding. I shared my opinion and here is my answer. I thought it might be of benefit to others or maybe at least thought provoking:

I don't think Mazuri or protein or fast growth has anything to do with pyramiding. My biggest, fastest growing sulcata hatchling is also the smoothest, by far. Protein and Mazuri does make them grow faster, but it doesn't change the condition of their pyramiding at all. I feed it to all of my torts, both babies and adults twice a week, soaked and mixed with greens.

As far as your humidity goes here's what I do: Tall sided glass tanks with the whole top covered except for a small spot for the light fixture. Proper humid hide box made out of a plastic shoe box with a lid. Wet (yes, I mean WET) substrate. When I spray the tort's shells, I also spray the whole enclosure several times a day, walls, top, hide box... everything. I soak them in the AM and again after being outside for sun. If I have time I soak them a third time in the evening. I also keep the room 50-60% on top of all that. This is really hard to do since its so dry here all the time. I have to spray the walls and ceiling of the room and splash a gallon or so of water on the concrete floor every day. Plus, I keep that room at 80, or warmer, all day and night, every day. I also spray their food with water before and during each feeding.

Is all of this overkill? Maybe. But its working and NOTHING has ever worked for me in the past. People have asked if I think the wild babies go sit in a warm stream all day. The truth is, I don't have any idea what wild babies do all day, and neither does anyone else. We can only speculate and guess. I only know that every technique in the past 24 years failed miserably and this one is succeeding.

 

[pugsandkids]

Tom, what lights do you use to keep your temps up with all that humidity?

 

[Missy]

Thanks Tom for helping me get on the right track with Tank. He has some pyramiding that I can not change but it will not get any worse thanks to you. One question, I have half of his enclosure covered with plastic glass. Sounds like you have the whole top covered. What about fresh air and air flow?

 

[onarock]

A forum member, who shall remain nameless, PMd me asking my thoughts on humidity and Mazuri feeding in regards to pyramiding. I shared my opinion and here is my answer. I thought it might be of benefit to others or maybe at least thought provoking:

I don't think Mazuri or protein or fast growth has anything to do with pyramiding. My biggest, fastest growing sulcata hatchling is also the smoothest, by far. Protein and Mazuri does make them grow faster, but it doesn't change the condition of their pyramiding at all. I feed it to all of my torts, both babies and adults twice a week, soaked and mixed with greens.

As far as your humidity goes here's what I do: Tall sided glass tanks with the whole top covered except for a small spot for the light fixture. Proper humid hide box made out of a plastic shoe box with a lid. Wet (yes, I mean WET) substrate. When I spray the tort's shells, I also spray the whole enclosure several times a day, walls, top, hide box... everything. I soak them in the AM and again after being outside for sun. If I have time I soak them a third time in the evening. I also keep the room 50-60% on top of all that. This is really hard to do since its so dry here all the time. I have to spray the walls and ceiling of the room and splash a gallon or so of water on the concrete floor every day. Plus, I keep that room at 80, or warmer, all day and night, every day. I also spray their food with water before and during each feeding.

Is all of this overkill? Maybe. But its working and NOTHING has ever worked for me in the past. People have asked if I think the wild babies go sit in a warm stream all day. The truth is, I don't have any idea what wild babies do all day, and neither does anyone else. We can only speculate and guess. I only know that every technique in the past 24 years failed miserably and this one is succeeding.

Climate
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Climate Haiku-Pauwela, HI United States
Rainfall (in.) 80
Snowfall (in.) 0
Precipitation Days 204
Sunny Days 276
Avg. July High 86.5
Avg. Jan. Low 66.2
Comfort Index (higher=better) 52
UV Index 9.9
Elevation ft. 1,120

Haiku-Pauwela, HI, gets 80 inches of rain per year. The US average is 37. Snowfall is 0 inches. The average US city gets 25 inches of snow per year. The number of days with any measurable precipitation is 204.

On average, there are 276 sunny days per year in Haiku-Pauwela, HI. The July high is around 75 degrees. The January low is 66. Our comfort index, which is based on humidity during the hot months, is a 52 out of 100, where higher is more comfortable. The US average on the comfort index is 44

Tom, I posted a climate synopsis of the area that I live in. I cut and pasted this info from a local weather site. As you can see it can get rainy and humid here (average humidity above 65%). It's kinda strange in that I keep all my platynota together and of the 8 they all have smooth shells but 2. They all graze. I keep them and all my other tortoises outside year round and I dont bring them in at night. Dr. Peter Liu who studies platynota believes pyramiding in platynota occurs in the wild, but in roughly 10% of the population and it may be genetic. I dont keep sulcatas so I dont know much about them, but I do keep p.pardalis and p.babcocki and my question is. Do you think that pyramiding could could also be at some extent genetic in sulcatas and leopards? I know your conducting a study with pardalis pardalis and I'm really curious to see your findings. - onarock

 

[dmmj]

remember wild hatchlings spend a lot of time in burrows, where they pee and poop in them, if you have ever dug down into the dirt 6 or more inches you know it is wetter than the topsoil, that combined with the heat should make for humid burrows, it only makes perfect sense to me, and I am a former to much protein believer.

 

[Tom]

I heat the whole room to 80. It gets warmer on hot summer days, but never below 80. Then I use regular, hardware store, 35-50 watt flood or spot bulbs over a flat stone to give each enclosure a hot basking spot.

Tom, what lights do you use to keep your temps up with all that humidity?

---

Thanks Tom for helping me get on the right track with Tank. He has some pyramiding that I can not change but it will not get any worse thanks to you. One question, I have half of his enclosure covered with plastic glass. Sounds like you have the whole top covered. What about fresh air and air flow?

This will vary with everyone's situation. It is VERY dry where I live, so I'm more concerned about maintaining humidity than airflow. The "lack" of air flow has never caused me any problems over the years with any species of reptile including all my tortoises.

Be patient with Tank. It took me two years of "swamp" living to see any change in Daisy. If nothing else, your tortoise will never be dehydrated with this sort of routine.

---

Tom, I posted a climate synopsis of the area that I live in. I cut and pasted this info from a local weather site. As you can see it can get rainy and humid here (average humidity above 65%). It's kinda strange in that I keep all my platynota together and of the 8 they all have smooth shells but 2. They all graze. I keep them and all my other tortoises outside year round and I dont bring them in at night. Dr. Peter Liu who studies platynota believes pyramiding in platynota occurs in the wild, but in roughly 10% of the population and it may be genetic. I dont keep sulcatas so I dont know much about them, but I do keep p.pardalis and p.babcocki and my question is. Do you think that pyramiding could could also be at some extent genetic in sulcatas and leopards? I know your conducting a study with pardalis pardalis and I'm really curious to see your findings. - onarock

There is still so much to be learned. I really don't know the answer to the genetic question. My adults pyramided despite extremely slow growth and very low protein (Started in 1998 with this. It doesn't work). Their babies have so far been very smooth. At about 7 weeks into it all my Leopards are looking pretty smooth too. Time will answer at least some of these questions for us.

BTW, I'm very jealous of your platynota. They are the only other species that I really want to have a herd of long term. Someday I'll get some. Don't hesitate to continually post pics of them. No one will complain. Haha.

 

[Neal]

... Leopards are looking pretty smooth too.

Tom, were the parents of the leopards you got pyramided?

 

[Tom]

The original wild caughts from 20 years ago were not. The captive raised offspring of those were. He's got several generations going now.

 

[-ryan-]

Tom, what lights do you use to keep your temps up with all that humidity?

Humid air is actually heats much easier than dry air, and when you limit the ventilation (as Tom and myself do), you can get great temps with very efficient bulbs. 90% of my lighting is 45 watt halogen flood bulbs purchased for much cheaper than 'reptile bulbs' or the like. The rest of the lighting is compact fluorescents (just normal ones like you use in household lamps). I have raised many russian tortoises from the egg in these setups (similar to what Tom has described) and they are nice and smooth. Russians are not as susceptible to severe pyramiding, but I'm confident that it will work with any type of young tortoise.