What Sub Species would you say my Russian is? (love his face in the last one! It's looks like he's going: ok you can put me down now. 
)
)Russian Sub Species
- Thread starter TortoiseBoy1999
- Start date
- Status
:roleyes:
Wow, nice big female you got there!
The thread, "Russian Subspecies" contains information on how to distinguish between the three subspecies of Russian tortoise (Testudo horsfieldii horsfieldii, T. horsfieldii kazachstanica, and T. horsfieldii rustamovi). These subspecies are not universally accepted. Some authorities acknowledge no subspecies, while other recognize a fourth subspecies. However, of those that do recognize subspecies, these three are the most commonly accepted.
See also: http://russiantortoise.org/subspecies.htm
It can be a little tougher to tell with captive bred, or long-term captive like this one (nice job, BTW), but judging by how your Russian tortoise female has a carapace that is a bit elongated and slightly domed, I would say that she belongs to T. horsfieldii rustamovi.
The thread, "Russian Subspecies" contains information on how to distinguish between the three subspecies of Russian tortoise (Testudo horsfieldii horsfieldii, T. horsfieldii kazachstanica, and T. horsfieldii rustamovi). These subspecies are not universally accepted. Some authorities acknowledge no subspecies, while other recognize a fourth subspecies. However, of those that do recognize subspecies, these three are the most commonly accepted.
See also: http://russiantortoise.org/subspecies.htm
It can be a little tougher to tell with captive bred, or long-term captive like this one (nice job, BTW), but judging by how your Russian tortoise female has a carapace that is a bit elongated and slightly domed, I would say that she belongs to T. horsfieldii rustamovi.
Can anyone else tell me anything?!
I think you have a T.h.rustamovi.
Eweezyfosheezy said:
Buy his shell isn't domed at all. It's mostly flat.
Why is it that I can't get anyone to comment on this thread?!
dmmj said:
Oh ok..... I just thought it would be nice to know....
I don't think it is a rustamovi. Even Kazakhstanica elongate quite a bit when mature. And that, considering that kazakhstanica and kuznetzovi are only ssp. of Agrionemys kazakhstanica, as it is the Mongol ssp. terbishi- all are the forms on the north and eastern areal, all with plastron bent upwards and more rounded than others.
Rustamovi is clearly different, and taken its small distribution (N-Iran, SW-Turkmenistan) compared to Kazakhstanica variants, it is very unlikely to occur in the hobby other than rare, accidental cases. Old imports decades ago, from Central Asia to communist European countries are the most varied, but today pet-trade includes mainly Kazakhstanica.
So, it is for sure an A. kazakhstanica, and about ssp. kazakhstanica and kuznetzovi... I can only say about front part of the plastron- in A.k.kaz. is more bent upwards than in A.k.kuz. A.k.terbishi from Mongolia has the most upright bent plastron and the most rounded body shape.
As I said, look for matching pairs as much as you can. I had 2 weirdos in my 15 (now... 13) herd of Horsfields: they had a more elongated body shape, flatter, but only one, the one still living, has an almost straight plastron, very weak bending upwards, and the front opening is much larger. I would wait to find a female for him, and let the others mate- they are very uniform. That guy it isn't even a Kazakhstanica!!
But it will take time for my small females to mature...
Rustamovi is clearly different, and taken its small distribution (N-Iran, SW-Turkmenistan) compared to Kazakhstanica variants, it is very unlikely to occur in the hobby other than rare, accidental cases. Old imports decades ago, from Central Asia to communist European countries are the most varied, but today pet-trade includes mainly Kazakhstanica.
So, it is for sure an A. kazakhstanica, and about ssp. kazakhstanica and kuznetzovi... I can only say about front part of the plastron- in A.k.kaz. is more bent upwards than in A.k.kuz. A.k.terbishi from Mongolia has the most upright bent plastron and the most rounded body shape.
As I said, look for matching pairs as much as you can. I had 2 weirdos in my 15 (now... 13) herd of Horsfields: they had a more elongated body shape, flatter, but only one, the one still living, has an almost straight plastron, very weak bending upwards, and the front opening is much larger. I would wait to find a female for him, and let the others mate- they are very uniform. That guy it isn't even a Kazakhstanica!!
But it will take time for my small females to mature...
Fabian, why are you referring to steppe tortoises as "Agrionemys kazachstanica"? They are Testudo horsfieldii, with three sometimes recognized subspecies (kazachstanica, rustamovai, and horsfieldii). There might be more, or all three of these subspecies might simply be regional variants. However, if they are real, they are within the subspecies T. horsfieldii, not "A. kazachstanica."
It is true that T. horsfieldii kazachstanica does appear to be the most commonly imported subspecies of steppe tortoise, so you may be right that this individual belongs to that subspecies, even if it is more elongated. I was thinking T. horsfieldii rustamovai because of the elongation, and the top seems a bit domed as well. However, that might just be due to very mild pyramiding, as I mentioned above, so perhaps it is the flat top of T. horsfieldii kazachstanica after all.
What are you talking about? There are detailed responses above, including from me.
It is true that T. horsfieldii kazachstanica does appear to be the most commonly imported subspecies of steppe tortoise, so you may be right that this individual belongs to that subspecies, even if it is more elongated. I was thinking T. horsfieldii rustamovai because of the elongation, and the top seems a bit domed as well. However, that might just be due to very mild pyramiding, as I mentioned above, so perhaps it is the flat top of T. horsfieldii kazachstanica after all.
TortoiseBoy1999 said:
What are you talking about? There are detailed responses above, including from me.
Gaddy, taxonomic corectness is too much for me... Chkhivadze said that in that paper (link below) will be used some different names than "their western colleagues" accept. Notice that Chkhivadze gave there species rank to the rustamovi, as for horsfieldi, bogdanovi, and maybe to baluchiorum!
I find that particular clasification easier...
I also saw a picture of a very domed Horsfieldi, native to Pakistan, Quetta region- never saw such a picture again, except maybe in a French forum. TOTALLY different! Therefore, I think it is not ok at all when I read that in W- China and in Balochistan (including Pakistan areal) lives the same taxon; it is nonsense! In harsh Xinjiang it should be Kazakhstanica, not a domed, termophile variant, as in the warmest Horsfieldi areal. So, I would be very curious what would be the Horsfieldi areal, if Baluchiorum is that very particular ecotype, and being also a synonim for the first taxon.
The domed taxon, no matter if called Horsfieldi or Baluchiorum, is clearly a different animal, adapted to warmer areas than that of those hardy gremlins from Central Asia republics, that we usually got.
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Chkhikvadze_2009b.pdf
is too much for me... Chkhivadze said that in that paper (link below) will be used some different names than "their western colleagues" accept. Notice that Chkhivadze gave there species rank to the rustamovi, as for horsfieldi, bogdanovi, and maybe to baluchiorum!I find that particular clasification easier...
I also saw a picture of a very domed Horsfieldi, native to Pakistan, Quetta region- never saw such a picture again, except maybe in a French forum. TOTALLY different! Therefore, I think it is not ok at all when I read that in W- China and in Balochistan (including Pakistan areal) lives the same taxon; it is nonsense! In harsh Xinjiang it should be Kazakhstanica, not a domed, termophile variant, as in the warmest Horsfieldi areal. So, I would be very curious what would be the Horsfieldi areal, if Baluchiorum is that very particular ecotype, and being also a synonim for the first taxon.
The domed taxon, no matter if called Horsfieldi or Baluchiorum, is clearly a different animal, adapted to warmer areas than that of those hardy gremlins from Central Asia republics, that we usually got.
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Chkhikvadze_2009b.pdf
Great link, Fabian. Thank you! I cannot read Cyrrilic, but I loved the photographs and the English comments at the end of the article.
Yes, perhaps flatter Russians burrow more, and therefore may have greater cold tolerance. However, these morphological differences may not be caused by profound genetic differences. In any case, there are differences, and even if closely related, it's better not to mix these subspecies if at all possible.
Yes, perhaps flatter Russians burrow more, and therefore may have greater cold tolerance. However, these morphological differences may not be caused by profound genetic differences. In any case, there are differences, and even if closely related, it's better not to mix these subspecies if at all possible.
GeoTerraTestudo said:
My Russian ALWAYS burrow's
Gaddy, this is for you- you will understand more than I did, but it already intrigued me. Save it in your archive!
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2009a.pdf[hr]
Gaddy, this is for you- you will understand more than I did, but it already intrigued me. Save it in your archive.
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2009a.pdf[hr]
Gaddy, I posted that info before, but it seems that it's not appearing!
For you:
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2009a.pdf
Save it in your arkive!
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2009a.pdf[hr]
Gaddy, this is for you- you will understand more than I did, but it already intrigued me. Save it in your archive.
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2009a.pdf[hr]
Gaddy, I posted that info before, but it seems that it's not appearing!
For you:
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2009a.pdf
Save it in your arkive
!
TortoiseBoy1999 said:My Russian ALWAYS burrow's
My Russians appear to be of the kazachstanica subspecies (flat, round carapace). Last year they burrowed very deeply as summer was ending. However, during the growing season, they dig only shallow pallets in their indoor pens. They would probably dig deeper if they were outside.
BTW - Do you know why the baluchiorum subspecies is not as widely recognized as the other three?
Gaddy, this is for you- you will understand more than I did, but it already intrigued me. Save it in your archive!
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2009a.pdf
And... I finally found the Quetta horsfieldi picture!!! Search on CalPhotos the name "Testudo horsfieldii" (yes, two final "i") and see how domed it is. The next one, in Bahukalat Protected Area, is also quite domed.
In both cases, front legs have large scales, Ibera-like, not gracile, Hermanni-like scales, like northern ssp.
I am stunned by the southern location there, it is hot desert with no real winter, but I strongly believe that Horsfieldi there are located at higher altitudes- that would explain its presence in such an area. I will mail someday the photographer, Barbod Safaei Mahroo, to ask him about the climate features of the Dargas location.
The Quetta individual is domed and shaped almost like an Ibera- well, if in Armenia lives an Ibera that looks like a Horsfieldi, why not a Horsfieldi looking like an Ibera somewhere?
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2009a.pdf
And... I finally found the Quetta horsfieldi picture!!! Search on CalPhotos the name "Testudo horsfieldii" (yes, two final "i") and see how domed it is. The next one, in Bahukalat Protected Area, is also quite domed.
In both cases, front legs have large scales, Ibera-like, not gracile, Hermanni-like scales, like northern ssp.
I am stunned by the southern location there, it is hot desert with no real winter, but I strongly believe that Horsfieldi there are located at higher altitudes- that would explain its presence in such an area. I will mail someday the photographer, Barbod Safaei Mahroo, to ask him about the climate features of the Dargas location.
The Quetta individual is domed and shaped almost like an Ibera- well, if in Armenia lives an Ibera that looks like a Horsfieldi, why not a Horsfieldi looking like an Ibera somewhere
?
CactusVinnie said:
Fabian,
Thank you so much for sharing the link to this scientific article with me. I read it this morning, and it is now one of my favorite tortoise studies. It's a phylogeographic look at T. horsfieldii by Uwe Fritz et al, who performed a similar analysis on T. graeca just a few years ago. Here's the title and abstract:
Amphibia-Reptilia 30 (2009): 245-257.
Mitochondrial diversity of the widespread Central Asian steppe tortoise (Testudo horsfieldii Gray, 1844): implications for taxonomy and relocation of confiscated tortoises
Uwe Fritz, Markus Auer, Marina A. Chirikova, Tatyana N. Duysebayeva, Valery K. Eremchenko, Haji Gholi Kami, Roman D. Kashkarov, Rafaqat Masroor, Yoshan Moodley, Attaullah Pindrani, Pavel Široký, Anna K. Hundsdörfer
Abstract. Using a nearly range-wide sampling, we investigated phylogeographic differentiation and mitochondrial diversity of Testudo horsfieldii, the only tortoise species confined to Central Asia. We identified three major haplotype clades with mainly parapatric distribution that do not correspond well to the currently recognized three subspecies. One clade is restricted to the Fergana Valley and seems to represent a previously overlooked evolutionarily significant unit. Another clade, consisting of several largely parapatrically distributed haplotypes, occurs in the north and the central southern part of the species’ range. The third clade, likewise comprising several largely parapatrically distributed haplotypes, was identified from the southeastern corner of the Caspian Sea in the west, from Afghanistan and Pakistan in the east and from two more northerly sites in western and south-eastern Uzbekistan. It is possible that this clade also occurs in eastern Turkmenistan and adjacent Afghanistan, regions not sampled for the present study. The generally parapatric distribution of individual haplotypes, even within each of the three major clades, suggests advanced lineage sorting, either due to limited dispersal abilities, glacial isolation in distinct local microrefuges or both acting in accord. The localized distribution of endemic haplotypes in the northern and central plains as well as in the mountainous eastern and southern parts of the distribution range supports the existence of multiple microrefuges there. Records of haplotypes of distinct clades in sympatry or close geographic proximity are likely the result of Holocene range expansions. In recent years, thousands of confiscated steppe tortoises were released into the wild. The detected mitochondrial differentiation offers a powerful tool for nature conservation, as a means of determining the geographic origin of confiscated tortoises and selecting suitable reintroduction regions.
Here are the two main figures from the paper:
Figure 1. One of nine ML trees for 26 mtDNA haplotypes of Testudo horsfieldii (1167 bp, cyt b and partial tRNA-Thr genes; −lnL = 2990.5257). The other eight ML trees differ only in the branching pattern within the ‘red clade’. Major haplotype clades indicated on the right. Individual known-locality haplotypes are indicated by letters; haplotypes identified in more than one individual in upper case and bold; haplotypes identified only once, lower case. For haplotypes of unknown geographic origin, GenBank accession numbers or voucher numbers are given (MTD T = Museum of Zoology Dresden, tissue collection). AJ888365, AY678410, AY678438, ‘r’, and ‘s’ are haplotypes represented by shorter GenBank sequences (429-1063 bp). Numbers above nodes are ML bootstrap values; below nodes, Bayesian posterior probabilities and MP bootstraps. The large asterisk indicates this branch was not found under BA and MP (see text). For the data set of 21 haplotypes, one ML tree with the same major topology was obtained (−lnL = 2815.0805). Support values were for this data set (ML/BA/MP): red clade, 72/0.85/70; blue clade, 92/0.93/92, black clade, 95/1.0/95; under ML: (blue clade + black clade), 52; under MP: (red clade + black clade), 53.
Figure 2. Geographic distribution of mtDNA haplotypes of Testudo horsfieldii. Colours correspond to other figures. Note occurrence of haplotypes of the ‘red clade’ and the ‘black clade’ in the same sites or in close geographic proximity. Simplified range borders of the three currently recognized subspecies indicated. Stars represent type localities: 1 – T. h. rustamovi (Chkhikvadze, Amiranashvili and Ataev, 1990); 2 – T. h. kazachstanica (Chkhikvadze, 1988); 3 – T. h. horsfieldii Gray, 1844; 4 – ‘T. baluchiorum Annandale, 1906’.
Basically, here's what all this means. This study sampled steppe tortoise saliva or blood from a wide area, but not the entire area occupied by T. horsfieldii. Using mitochondrial DNA, the researchers found three major clades (or groups). Currently three steppe tortoise subspecies are recognized (T. h. horsfieldii, T. h. kazachstanica, and T. h. rustamovi) based on shell morphology (height and length of the carapace). According to this study, the only subspecies that appears to be genetically valid is T. h. kazachstanica. The other two, as well as the defunct T. h. baluchiorum, do not correspond to genetic lineages.
The study mentions that mixed breeding between clades probably occurs in captivity, but it does not say whether there are conservation consequences from this mixing. There probably are, since some populations are in the north, others in the south. However, regional adaptations have been studied in this species. So, captive mixed animals may have reduced fitness in the wild, or they may not. It's a good idea to assume they do, but I don't think anyone really knows.
- Status
Similar threads
New Posts
-
Setting up for a Russian Tortoise - Constructive comments welcome- Latest: Alex and the Redfoot
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-