Sick baby cherryhead

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lilburger

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Hey all,

I have a baby cherryhead tortoise that is sick. I have had him for about nine months, and he has been sick, on and off, since June. I brought him to the vet over the summer who gave him a vitamin shot and antibiotics but said otherwise she couldn't find out what was wrong with him.

He does not walk around on his own, won't eat on his own. The vet gave me a protein powder that I have been mixing with blended fruit and greens and feeding to him with a blank syringe. He can't open his eyes without having a bath first; I give him a warm bath once or twice a day, before I try to feed him. Won't poop much, as he's not really eating much. The bottom of his shell is not hard, and he hasn't grown at all in the time that I've had him. He has some whitish discharge around his eyes sometimes and his skin has lost most of its pigmentation, it's grayish now and I think it should be dark brown. He's also a bit puffy around his arms and legs.

The substrate I am currently using is coconut coir and some sphagnum moss. The humidity in his tank is around 75%, and the temp in the cool end of the tank is around 70, warm end around 90. He doesn't walk around at all anymore though so I have been placing him in his hide in the warm end of the tank.

I know he needs to see a vet, problem is i don't know anyone around here (south coast MA) that would see him, the last vet wasn't much help. What can I be doing? Does anyone know a good tort vet in MA?

Thanks,
Emily
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Emily:

Its time for you to take a good, hard look at your husbandry practices. Read up on Terry's care sheet (turtletary.com) and make sure you are providing everything your baby needs in the way of moisture, humidity, heat, food, etc. Heat and humidity play a VERY important part in the well-being of your baby. We can offer you our opinions, but we're not there and seeing it in person.

Open your mind and re-read the care sheet as if you were reading it for the first time. In a sense, start over and be sure everything is as it should be for your baby.
 

coreyc

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Hi
I live in Mass to are you near Worcester? When I had Iguanas there was a place on park ave that took care of them called ( do not let the name fool you they are great ) the cat hospital I'll see if I still have the number not sure if the take torts they take snakes an lizards or you can google them you should find there number
 

Candy

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You do need to find a new vet that one doesn't know what they are doing. I think that he might have done more harm then good to your tortoise. Your temp. in the hot spot seems a little too warm for me. I always keep my babies at 85 degrees and if it gets to be 90 they will usually walk to the cool side. The humidity seems good. What do you feed him? Does he have something in his enclosure so he can soak if he wants to? Can you post any pictures of his enclosure and of him here? Do you have a light shining right on him (hopefully not)? Good luck and I hope that you live close to the last poster here it sounds like that might be a better choice of a vet. I just checked out some of your threads from when you first got Spike. I take it you're a teacher? Have you taken Spike out of the classroom yet and brought him home where there's not so much going on? That might be a good idea so he's somewhere quite. Just a thought. :rolleyes:
 

lilburger

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Hey thanks for the replies...

I have read and re-read Terry's care sheet, and looked through others to see if I am missing anything... and can't figure it out. Here is what I have going on:

I just recently re-did my tort enclosure and have been working to stabilize temps and humidity. My heat sources are a red basking bulb and a ceramic heat emitter, as well as a heat pad I placed under the warm end of the tank. I have set up a warm hide and a cool hide, filled them with moss and placed moss around the tank as well to hold moisture. Under the moss is coconut coir. I have one end of the tank covered so it holds humidity (have tried it more humid and less humid than it is now- 70-75% seems a happy medium) The warm end of the tank isn't quite 90, it's more like 85-88. Cool end is 75. There is a "pool" of water for him to sit in if he needs, and a separate food dish. I have one half of the tank covered with black paper (the cool end) so it is darker there during the day. The uncovered tank is exposed to a small amount of natural light from a nearby window. I have been rotating his food from greens to fruit to protein (I read that dry cat food works- I soak it and mush it up- have also tried tuna- he's never been interested in either of these) being sure to cut the food up very small.

I will go back, read the care sheet again. Not too close to Worcester, though. Will try to take some pictures and send.

Thanks.
 

Candy

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Well everything that you're doing sounds very good to me. I'm wondering if like I said before, the vet didn't do more harm then good. Vitamin shots are not good for them. You could try soaking him in water and baby food. Carrots or squash they say works. I know that Yvonne and Maggie and Kristina do this with theirs and it seems to make the baby stronger. I know that Kristina puts vitamins into the water and baby food (either bird vitamins or baby vitamins). The only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not he needs more vitamins since the vet gave him a shot of them already. I will ask Kristina to come onto this thread and see if she has any ideas for you. :) You never told us if he's still in your classroom or not.
 

Shelli

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Lilburger, I've seen a number of posts lately about this same kind of sickness in young Cherries not just in the US either, non of what is described seems overly unusual for young ones until the 'eyes closed' part..
It's so sad they are such sweet unassuming animals..
I will be thinking about your little Cherryhead & sending it some stay strong vibes.. ((()))...
 

lilburger

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He is still in my classroom right now- mainly because it is warmer than my house! I will try some mushed carrots, I have been giving him blended bananas which he seems to like, but he is still not eating on his own. I have to wait for him to open his mouth and then give him a drop of bananas. He definitely seems more alert when I give him a bath, which helps with getting him to eat something.

Thanks for the good vibes :)
 

Kristina

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First things first.

Even though your classroom is warmer than your house, he needs to go home with you. A sick baby is an already stressed baby, and the noises and movement of the classroom are not helping him. He needs to rest and be stress free. If you need more warmth once you get him home, you can use a simple 60-75 watt incandescent black light bulb. Right now Walmart and RiteAid have them for $1 each.

Over the years, when I have had a young tortoise or turtle that was weakened, ill, not eating, etc., I have used baby food/vitamin soaks as a means to add needed nutrients and energy. The method for this is simple. Prepare a soak for your tortoise. The water should be warm but not hot to the touch, and the level of the water should just cover the bridge between the carapace (upper shell) and plastron (lower shell.) Into the water, mix one jar (or less for smaller volume soaks, but a good portion of around 30-40% of the total volume) of human baby food. Carrots or butternut squash seem to work the best. To the water can also be added bird vitamins of the kind that are mixed with water (Vitasol is one) and I have also used human baby vitamins (such as Gerber Poly Vi Sol.) Another great option is to add a liquid calcium carbonate solution, which can be purchased over the counter and is particularly a good choice for tortoises that have soft carapaces or plastrons, or very fine grade, suspendable calcium carbonate powder. The soak should be placed in an area that will allow it to remain warm for 15-20 minutes, such as on a heat pad, under a heat lamp, or next to a heat duct.

There is some question as to WHY this works. But I will say that it has been successful for me, many, many times.

I would stop the banana. It is not a good food. It has a calcium:phosphorus ratio of only 0.3:1, which means that it partially blocks calcium absorption, and since he is already soft, this isn't good. If you are able to get him to take some pureed food, I suggest trying the butternut squash.

While he is in his soak, tear up some tiny pieces of greens, like dandelion, broad leaf plantain, hibiscus leaves or blooms, collards, kale, turnip greens, or chicory (not all of them, try 1 or 2 to begin with) and put them in the water right in front of him. With the dandelions, I have found if you tear the leaf slightly in a couple of places, it releases the smell and makes it more enticing. Since he is opening his eyes while being soaked, it may help him eat on his own, and he will benefit even more from the vitamins that way.

Now, because of the puffiness and the discharge around the eyes, this tortoise does need a vet. Please to not allow a vet to give another vitamin shot. They often do more harm than good. The puffiness can be a sign of renal failure, and he needs a blood work up to check for that.

Can you tell us what town you are located in, or a town very close to you? Several of us have resources for reptile vets, but we have to search by town or county name. While we help you look for a new vet, please use the treatment I have described above.

I hope this helps and I am rooting for him!
 

JourneyTort

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lilburger said:
He is still in my classroom right now

How do you know what the temps are in the evening and at night when no one is around? I think you may be better off bringing him home to nurse him back to health that way you know exactly what the temps are and what he is eating, etc.

Do you leave the lights on at night? I realize he is a cherry head and really don't require too much UVB but I would imagine they need that hot end for longer than a school day but I could be wrong.
 

lilburger

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I do leave the heat lamp and ceramic heater on at night. The heat is off in the building at night so it is a bit cooler, when I come in in the morning it is closer to 80 in the warmer end of the tank, 70 in the cooler end. The custodians know I have animals in my room and check on them periodically as well.

Kristina- Thanks so much for the soaking advice. I will take him home tonight and try this for his dinner. I live in Mattapoisett, MA 02739 which is near the New Bedford area (my school is in New Bedford). Fall River, MA is about 20 min. away, Providence RI is about 30.

Spike WILL get better :)
 

Kristina

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Here are a couple that I found. I don't know for sure which ones are close to you and which are not, but that should narrow it down. The ones with the * were recommended by herp keepers, but I myself don't know anything about them.

Spinnaker Veterinary Clinic Call 508-812-1142

Dr. Agusto
Bristol County Vet Hospital
508 336-338
15 min away from Providence RI

Charlie Innis, VMD VCA
Westboro Animal Hospital
155 Turnpike Rd. Rte. 9
Westboro, MA 01581
(508) 366-1444

Robert Allen, Robin Karlin
59 Depot Rd
POB 478
Haydenville 01309
413-268-VETS

Drs. Anderson & Clegg
Natick Animal Clinic (or Hospital)
121 W. Central St
Natick 01760
508-653-5020

* John Athans
Swan Corner Animal Hospital
Tyng's Tarry Office Complex
164 Westford Road Unit 10
Tyngsboro
978-649-3757

Pamela Bendock
Upper Newbury Vet Clinic
338 Newbury Street
Boston 02115
(617) 536-2121

Robert Binder
Saugus Animal Hospital
300 Broadway
Saugus 01906
781-233-1340

Barbara Bonner
1 Grafton Rd
Upton 01568
508-529-6811

Bernard Centofanti & * Tom Finney
Hanson Animal Hospital
705 Main St
Hanson 02341

Tom Crosson
Spruce Hill Vet Clinic
4 Plumtree Rd
Springfield 01180
413-782-3183

Eastfield Hospital
Boston Road
Springfield
413-543-2772

Ann Freidhoffer, Ed Cole
Wellesley-Natick Vet Hospital
359 Worcester Rd, Rt 9
Natick 01760
617-235-8448

Elizabeth Hartman
Wellesley Animal Hospital
314 Weston Road
Wellesley, 02181
(617) 237-0066

Patricia Hess
Kingston Animal Hospital
192 Main St
Kingston 02364-1928
781-585-6525

Brian Holub, Jacqueline Jacobs, Julie Kosper, John Makuc
Countryside Vet Hospital
289 Littleton Rd
Chelmsford 01824
(508) 256-9555

* Charles Innes
The Pet Practice
155 Turnpike Rd
Westboro MA 01581
508-366-1444

James Lunig
Spinnaker Vet Clinic
1154 Riverside Ave
Sommerset 02726
508-673-3690

Hamilton Lincoln, Jessica Clay
Andover Animal Hospital
233 Lowell St
Andover 01810
978-475-3600

Sally Mahoney
74 Birch Dr
Harwich 02645-1704

* Joerg Mayer
Tufts University, School of Veterinary Medicine
200 Westboro Road,
North Grafton, MA 01536
508-839-5395

Gregory Mertz
The Odd Pet Vet
109 Bridge Street
Dedham
(781) 251-9131

Louise Morgan
Brewster Vet Hospital
56 Underpass Road
Brewster 02631
(508) 896-2540

* Connie Orcutt
Angell Mem Animal Hospital
MSPCA
350 South Huntington Avenue
Boston 02130
617-522-7282

Karen Purcel
Uxbridge Animal Hospital
362 West Hartford Ave
Uxbridge
508-278-5869

Janet Rosen
28A Wright St
N. Chelmsford 01863

Rowley Memorial Hospital
Union Street
Springfieldd
413-785-1221

Tamara Pikuulik
Wignall Animal Hospital
1837 Bridge St
Dracut 01826
978-454 8272

William (Bill) Sager
Sager Animal Hospital
4 Strawberry Hill Road
Acton, MA 01720
978-263-3535

Daria Smith
Lexington Vet Association
511 Waltham St
Lexington 02173
617-862-1127

* John Athans Spodick
Swan Carner Animal Hospital
Tygns Tarry Complex
164 Westford Road
Tyngsboro 01879
649-3757

Marcy Strange
Wellesley-Natick Vet Hospital
359 Worcester Road, Route 9
Natick 01760
617-235-8448; 508-653-3420

Tuft's University
Westboro Road
North Grafton
508-893-5395

Flavia Zorgniotti
Phoenix Vet Hospital
9 Pelham Island Road
Wayland 01778
508-358-8100
 

coreyc

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Worcester Cat Hospital & Bird Clinic
(508) 798-0400
347 Park Ave, Worcester, Ma

Categories: Pet Sitting Services, Veterinary Medicine
Specialities: Rabbits, Ferrets, Exotic Pets & Reptiles, Certified In Veterinary Acupuncture, Cardiac & Internal Medicine, Bird's, Surgery Ultrasound, Complete Veterinary Care, Cats, Ultrasound, Surgery, Pet Products
 

Madkins007

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I support the idea of the vet, but I also would try a simple program of letting it rest and rebuild its immune system.

My recommendations would be...

- Bring it home so it is not subject to the hustle and bustle of a classroom, the bright lights, etc.
- Use a habitat, like a tub, you can carefully control and monitor during the rehabilitation. (the current home may be perfectly OK for this.) [I am going to use a 30 gallon or so plastic tub as an example for this.]
- Everything going into the new home (or remodeled home) should be cleaned/disinfected or new to prevent any reinfections of any 'bugs'.

HOUSING
- Add a couple inches of clean cypress mulch or similar hardwood mulch. Not wood shavings, and no cedar or other mulch that smells strongly.
- Add a couple of hides, including one very humid hide on the warm side. If possible, make a 'burrowing hide' (mine is a hill of cypress that has been hollowed out and has a piece of clean bark over it. I added a wad of fluffy long-fibered sphagnum moss that was slightly dampened. An old '1/2 hollow log' hide acts as a tunnel, but they have long since dug their own access paths! There are other ways to go, but the idea is a place the tortoise can nestle down into and have the shell be in contact with damp but not clammy materials.)
- If possible, add some live potted plants. I like ferns that offer a lot of shade. The plants will help keep the air clean and fresh as well as add humidity and hides. Just bury the pots in the mulch.
- Pour in enough water to wet the bottom of the mulch, but do not let the top get wet.

LIGHTING/HEAT
- Put the heating pad under about 1/2 of the tub, more if needed to raise temps a bit but the pad should never actually be hot.
- Point a ceramic heat emitter in about the middle of the tub to raise the overall temps to about 82-85ish day and night. TEST THE ACTUAL TEMPS with a probe or infrared thermometer on the surface of the substrate in several locations. Raise or lower the emitter to get the desired temps (or use a thermostatic controller.)
- Use a low-wattage mercury vapor bulb (MVB) on the hot end for heat and UVB lighting. While it is often debated, most actual research points to UV lighting as being important for all species of tortoise, even if only in smaller doses. Use a timer to have a consistent 12-14 hour day. These can be tricky to position- they need to be close for the right UVB, but far enough to not overheat the habitat. Aim for no more than about 95 at the hottest right under the bulb, but for the warm side to be under 90 overall.
- If you want a more realistic (and probably less stressful) day, use two timers and turn on a plain low-wattage incandescent bulb for 12-14 hours a day, and the MVB for about 6-8 hours in the middle of the day.

- NOTE: Some people will say this is too bright or too warm. The trick is to offer a lot of choices and not go overboard with the light and heat. With several hides and a definite warm and cool side, the tortoise should be able to find the combination it needs to get better. And, as mentioned, use low wattage devices.

HUMIDITY/HYDRATION
- The plants, humid hide(s), and substrate will do a lot of the work for you, but there are other things to add as well.
- Cover part of the habitat to retain warm, humid air. (Use a cover that will not block the heat or light, or melt, etc.)
- Mist the tortoise with a warm spray several times a day.
- Offer a drinking dish that is big enough to comfortably rest in and easy to get in and out of, and park it in the warm side. keep the water clean and filled.
- Offer fresh foods with plenty of moisture, and consider giving them a quick mist to boost it further.
- Place the tortoise in the water dish at least once a day, but not too often (handling can be stressful.)

DIET
- Offer small amounts of food for now, and try to offer a balanced meal with something special on the plate- a big bite of banana, some strawberry, a colorful edible flower, a small spoonful of canned pumpkin, something it will eat some of.
- Aim for meals that have color and smell good. Some organic fruit baby foods may be helpful to get it to start eating again.
- Add a very, very small sprinkle of multivitamins to the meal every other or every few days. You can safely use a crushed human multivitamin. Add a very small amount of calcium as well. It usually works best to mix these in a bit so they do not look like some sort of powdery fungus. You'll stop this as it starts to eat on its own again.
- There is a food list in the Red-foot article in the Tortoise Library in my signature.

OTHER
- Try to leave it alone as much as you can, although some handling is necessary.
- Keep things as quite as possible around the habitat. Flashing lights, vibrations, etc. will disturb it.
- Keep things as clean as possible. Discard old food, clean out messes, wash the food and water dish daily, etc.
- It may help to weigh the tortoise every week or so, and consider photographing it as well. A simple log will really help you keep track of what is going on and if it is getting better.

Again- that is what I would do. It is similar to my daily cares, but a bit fussier, warmer and cleaner than my normal routine.

Good luck!
 

DaisyDuke

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At this point I would take him to Angell Memorial. They are an emergency animal hospital, they are are "big" animal hospital. I would tell you were I go but I am in Boston so as far as a long term vet goes we might be too far from you. Also my vet is some what new to torts. It is SO hard to find a good knowledgeable tort vet:(

Where he sounds so sick it is best to get up here to Boston and visit Angell Memorial. I am sure that is what most caring vets would advise at this point. The number for them is in Kristina's list she posted for you. I would also try everything Mark suggested and read his website it has become my bible of tort care.

I hope your tort gets better soon, please keep us posted.
 

lilburger

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Hey everybody! Thanks so much for the advice. I've brought Spike home, and tried the baby food, he seems more energetic already. Will get him to a vet ASAP. He has all new bedding and is resting at a comfy temperature. Will continue to follow recommendations as mentioned above, and keep you posted as to his progress! Thanks :) Emily
 

Yvonne G

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I'm not an advocate of having a classroom tortoise. I know its good for the kids, but its really NOT good for the tortoise. The teacher can't be watching the children at all times, and they sometimes get pretty aggressive with a caged up tortoise...poking and prodding and outright teasing.

I had a really nice female box turtle. She was friendly and would eat right out of your hand. I adopted her to a teacher of 3rd grade children. The teacher brought the turtle back in a month or so because she thought there was something wrong with the turtles legs. She wouldn't bring her head or front legs out and just pushed herself around by her back legs.

After having the turtle back and in a quiet environment for a few weeks, I came to realize that there was nothing wrong with the turtle. She was just protecting herself and was afraid to come out. There's no telling what punishment the poor turtle had to endure at the hands of those kids.
 

Madkins007

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My wife is a teacher and often has animals in her classroom, and I have to second what Yvonne says- classrooms are tough on animals, especially young, shy, vulnerable torts.

There is a huge value in live animals in the classroom, and I think there is a way to balance animal needs and classroom reality, but I also honestly think that it is a tougher job than most teachers are willing to do. It would involve carefully selecting the animals, using some modified housing protocols that better allow a quiet retreat for the animal, some sort of rotation plan so no one animal is in the room for too long, and a few other points (like handling guidelines, etc.) More like zoo-keeping than pet-keeping.
 

Candy

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lilburger said:
Hey everybody! Thanks so much for the advice. I've brought Spike home, and tried the baby food, he seems more energetic already. Will get him to a vet ASAP. He has all new bedding and is resting at a comfy temperature. Will continue to follow recommendations as mentioned above, and keep you posted as to his progress! Thanks :) Emily

That sounds great Emily. I can't wait to see pictures (when he's up to it). I'm sure he will like the quietness of you home. :) And please do keep us updated.
 
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