Slovenian tortoise farm pt2

[-EJ]

I didn't post the photos of this because I wouldn't want to see the help doing their thing...

Where's Danny on this thread? I'd like to hear from him too. I think GBtortoises has a valid request....show the proof is it that hard and if they're constantly policing the area I didn't see anyone in any of the photos. Not even by the houses....strange. GBtortoises very good that you picked up on the turtles not being right. Good job!

 

[GBtortoises]

Gary... I never had you pegged as a cynic. I have to ask... do you have AH on speed dial. Your response really threw me back.

As mentioned in a previous post... I have 23 animals from this farm. 9 Hermanns and 14 Marginateds... all perfect animals and definately not wild caught.

The farm is a wholesale operation. As a courtacy to my friends I'm not going to give out an address (I suspect you would know about such respect) although it would not take a rocket scientist to obtain such information.

As I read you post... it blows me away. I suspect that it might be because it cuts into your pocket.

How can you deny the photos?

I can't recall any questions outside of the address... ask away.

Where do you think all these Hermanns and Marginateds are coming from?

Then... All the the Leopards and Russians in the UK?

Man... your post is really disturbing.

What more do you want than the photos posted. Most of these people stay away from the mainstream... for some reason... and it is not because they are trying to hide anything.

Well Ed, as usual with any of your posts that reach this point, the de-characterization and accusations starts. The first thing that you always like to do when someone questions your posts is begin to paint them as being the devious one. Let's see, so far you've told me that I was full of "BS, BS, BS" in a former post on a different subject. Now I'm cynical and disturbing. If progression goes as usual in posts where people question you I should be getting called outright specific names soon!

Still you answer no questions that are asked. But I will, along with responding to some of your accusations:

No, actually I'm not being cynical, just giving you some of your own snide medicine. Everyone else here grumbles about you doing it, I'm just returning the favor. If you can't take it, don't give it, it's that simple.

How do you know that the animals that you have are from that farm? Did you pick them up or receive them directly from the farm? If so, you must know a contact person or address that you can share with us. Because the animals were born in captivity does not necessarily mean that they were concieved in captivity. Surely you must know that there are wild caught females that drop eggs while in captivity at importers and dealers and they incubate and sell the offspring. Nothing wrong with that at all. But that does not a farm make.

Now here's the one that I got the best laugh over: That you suspect that it's cutting into my pockets! Yeah, because I'm making a living, paying my mortgage and feeding my family from breeding tortoises! I have no idea how much I make selling captive born tortoises. But I can tell you that I have spent far more on maintaining them over the years than I have ever made. Profit isn't even a thought in my mind. I sell the offspring because it does help to pay for some of their upkeep. If you'd like I can also provide you with many names of people that I have given tortoises too also for classrooms and educational centers. Not a very good way to make a profit! Money is not at all why I keep tortoises. I have a very good, full time job and a part time business that pay my bills and pay for my tortoises. If producing tortoises was my job and I had to make money with them, I probably would lose interest quickly. I do it because I enjoy it.

Why do you keep tortoises Ed? What do you keep? I'm betting I'm not the only one that would be interested in seeing photos of your tortoises. You seem to dispute other peoples methods of husbandry, usually laced with lots of cynicism. Photos of mine are all over the internet. I'm proud of the care that I give them and how they've turned out. I'm interested in seeing yours.

How can I deny photos? Well again, I've seen photos of what is supposed to be Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster, yet, no one has proved their existence. Maybe there is a farm in Slovenia that is raising them! I hope so because it would be cool to have a pet Bigfoot, that would definitely keep the traveling salesmen off my porch! I'm not denying the photos, I'm questioning the proof of where they were taken. The indoor photos could be any import or dealer facility anywhere in the world. The outdoor photos could be anywhere too. The only ones with a shred of provable validity are the couple that show Hermann's tortoises and have a European architectual style structure in the background. I doubt that they're anywhere else. But I am also not aware of the individual styles of each region.

I can take photos of my tortoises outdoors too and tell anyone that there in Slovenia. Without proof of their true location who's going to know the difference other than what I tell them?

Again, if you read my entire previous posts rather than picking out the parts that you want to attempt to publicly ridicule me with, you'll see that I absolutely am 100% in favor of humane farming to reduce the number of animals taken from the wild. I'm not knocking the process of farming or the fact that one (or more) may already exist. But again a few photos, many of whose subjects just show a bunch of overcrowed animals sitting there staring at the walls, does not prove the existence of a farm. For all anyone knows most of those photos could have been taken at import holding facilities, dealers and similar businesses. Again, that does not make it a farm that consistently produces captive offspring year after year.

I find it interesting that out of courtesy you don't want to give out the address. As if myself or someone else is going fly to Slovenia, find the place and rob it! Really? Geez, I was thinking of doing just that, but I don't have enough vacation time right now!

You can carry on slandering me all you want Ed. I've had far worse thrown at me and I'm still standing.

Again, do I want to believe that tortoises are being reproduced on captive breeding farms year after year in order supply the pet trade rather than continually collecting them from the wild. Yes, I absolutely do!

Do I think it's good idea? Yes, I absolutely do! If its' done with the breeders and offsprings well being in mind.

Should they make a profit? Of course they should, it's a business and their living.

Do I think that true breeding farms (not holding facilities) currently exist? Well, I've been hearing about them for the past 4 or 5 years, all in Slovenia, but I have yet to meet anyone that can prove that they do exist. I for one hope that they do.

 

[-EJ]

Gary, All I can say is... wow.

Well Ed, as usual with any of your posts that reach this point...

 

[t_mclellan]

Just to help stir the cool-aid, I like many others have friends around the world.
So I figure that the best way to get info on Slovenia is to ask a Slovenian!
I sent an e-mail to a friend in the same occupation as me that might be willing to help.
I'll keep you informed or better yet, I'll try to get him on here!

 

[gummybearpoop]

As the story goes...

Oh... forgot to mention these... Radiated tortoises... which I'm certain you will see in the pet trade.

I am not too sure about this statement because of the USFWS. I know the radiated tortoise populations are in the millions, but there are a lot of politics with radiata. Do you think the USFWS will lift the CBW permit requirements?

Also, it looks like the radiateds have unhealthy carapaces....similar to how some look in a few US zoo collections.



On a side note, thank you Ed for sharing these pics with the public. There were interesting to see. I think the only pen that really needs to be larger would be the sulcata pen. In addition, I think these pics give some good ideas for caging.

 

[Yvonne G]

I hate to see this thread turn into a name calling situation. It was nice of Ed to post these pictures for us to look at. Whether or not any of you believe they are what they are purported to be, please don't resort to name calling. Keep it friendly. Please! on both sides

 

[GBtortoises]

Yvonne-Thank you, I agree and am taking your advice. It's getting way off subject anyway.