Snake kills children ?! D:

[wellington]

The snake totally did it. African Rock Pythons are known for killing for fun, they do it all the time...look it up...Google it...the internet never lies.

You are kidding right? Trying to be funny? i hope so. The Internet is full of lies.

 

[poison]

sorry but Dr. Brady Bar/ Steve Irwin / Jeff Corwin are not scientist.

Again we do not know if the bones were broken. As for them bleeding from the mouth, nose and eyes, that is not always the case. Do you feed live to your snakes? Well nobody was there to get the snake off of them and give them CPR on time if the snake truly did it.

 

[EchoTheLeoTort]

Funny how you both are so quick to say it was the snake. Do either of you own a snake? Were you there? Your entire arguement is also invalid considering nothings been released. There is nothing i hate more than people who act like they know everything about everything and quickly hop all over people who try and give reasons as to why it wouldnt be the snake. You both quickly take sides and are quick to shut down tom and everyone else who says maybe it wasnt the snake. I have no clue if the snake did it, neither do you. Don't shoot everyone down and don't kid yourself that snakes are satans minions. Many snakes have calm and relaxed demeanors. The fact of the matter is that if it were released that it was asphyxiation, and they wanted to prove it was the snake for sure theyd release the facts that there were bite marks and other damage. Have you fallowed murder cases on tv? Things get released quickly in the media. I dont think the story adds up and i think they should of waited to put the snake down. It was wrong to kill it based off a claim and not facts.

Now you are just putting words in my mouth. I never once said "the snake did it". Do I own snakes? Yes I have kept snakes for 13 years now. But I don't see how that has to do with anything. A lot of "reptile enthusiast" are acting to nieve and don't wanna believe that the snake did it just because they are "reptile keepers". No there is not enough info out there to say the snake did it but there is also not enough info to say the snake didnt do it at this point. These large constrictors are very capable of doing things like this and it should be known.

Please tell me how my argument is invalid. It is my opinion and experiences.

i dont know I mean, i was told my argument is invalid. If you are saying steve irwin and all the other people aren't scientists you definitely don't consider yourself one. So how is my argument completely invalid and yours is completely 100% the truth? I keep a tegu and a ball python. I am definitely not a reptile enthusiast or a big keeper. But i truly believe that snakes get a horrible reputation from media, and society. I am definitely not saying it wasn't the snake, I am not saying any of your arguments are wrong, mine might be wrong, we don't know. But the facts given definitely aren't grounds for putting an animal to death and it being blamed for the death of two children. The stories just don't make any sense right now. Even if the snake crawled onto the children I honestly think the pressure from something weighing 100 pounds on top of you would wake anybody up. And i truly think even if the snake did do it, there was some sort of neglect from the owner. There had to have been some noise, some sort of warning given off. You would hear the ducting breaking, part of the ceiling breaking, a noise IF the snake fell. You both said that the snake didn't "fall" but its what all the sources are saying that I have heard. That'd make a decent thump. Regardless i don't want to argue or make anyone mad cause its none of our business in the first place and the fact of the matter is that no one knows. No point in arguing over something unknown. I do think though that you are wrong about those people not knowing anything. You don't have to be a scientist to learn and study. If you work with reptiles for so long you learn things and pick up on them. You can study and you can discover unknown things. I am sure they know more than any of us when it comes to reptiles.They shouldn't be tossed aside because they aren't titled as dr's or scientist. I just hope that whoever is investigating gets it accurate and does a thorough search. I hate when it's so easy to pin something on someone or something that they just automatically say it was that and thats that. We will see what develops

 

[poison]

Don't get me wrong the three of them have halped edicate LOTS of people with their knowledge. The point I was trying to make to Mark is that they are herpetologist they do field studies they are not in the medical field so they are not he people who determine how snakes kill. Even if they say how snakes kill they them self will have to have proof if they get questioned.

 

[Jd3]

Funny how you both are so quick to say it was the snake. Do either of you own a snake? Were you there? Your entire arguement is also invalid considering nothings been released. There is nothing i hate more than people who act like they know everything about everything and quickly hop all over people who try and give reasons as to why it wouldnt be the snake. You both quickly take sides and are quick to shut down tom and everyone else who says maybe it wasnt the snake. I have no clue if the snake did it, neither do you. Don't shoot everyone down and don't kid yourself that snakes are satans minions. Many snakes have calm and relaxed demeanors. The fact of the matter is that if it were released that it was asphyxiation, and they wanted to prove it was the snake for sure theyd release the facts that there were bite marks and other damage. Have you fallowed murder cases on tv? Things get released quickly in the media. I dont think the story adds up and i think they should of waited to put the snake down. It was wrong to kill it based off a claim and not facts.

1) I do

2) I have actually held a dead child in my hands. I've seen trauma. I've seen gore you can't fathom. I understand what it takes.

3) the investigators that have been IN THIS HOUSE believe it was the snake. They WERE. There is so much pressure and investigation being doing here. Do you honestly think they just dropped the ball and someone got say with murder?

4) if you think every detail of an autopsy report is release in every case within a week you're truly clueless. I know details on dozens of deaths right here in South Dakota near you and your home. The news hasn't reported any of them. They don't. They said the CAUSE OF DEATH was asphyxiation. They didn't say there were no other signs of trauma.

5) I have testified in murder cases. I've testified in wrongful death suits. I've testified in DUI, assault, and child abuse cases. I've sat in grand rounds on pediatric and adult deaths.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

The bones on children require much, much more than 5 ppsi to break. The bones of children actually are elastic and harder to break than older people. They commonly get green stick fractures rather than simple breaks like adults. From the beginning you're wrong and misguided. There is nothing that gives any indication this snake that weighed twice as much as the smallest child didn't kill them. Dozens if police officers, doctors and experts have reviewed this personally. I'll take that over the word of a 19 year old girl with a lizard and a tortoise in her bedroom.

http://www.livescience.com/6040-brute-force-humans-punch.html

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=564853

I saw more trauma this weekend than you've seen in your life.

HAVE YOU EVER DONE CPR ON A REAL PERSON? AN INFANT? YOUNG CHILD? Have you ever experienced bones breaking under you? I've done a lot of CPR. A lot. Small children's ribs don't crack under CPR. Adults. Elderly They do.

You need to back some of what you say with fact or experience. So far, you haven't done it once. If you want to come out and have a big kid day let me know. We're close, I'll show you what some of this crap actually looks like. Step away from the Internet and quit assuming you have enough bite for your bark.

 

[mike taylor]

So what you are saying is that these guys are not scientists. Your right two of them are Doctors. Doctors that spend time researching the animals that we keep in the wild .
That do the research on how and why snakes kill . So you are telling me a green anaconda grabs a croc that holds it's breath for an hour will wait to asphyxiat it . I will do the search for you and post the links. And yes I feed my snakes live rats ,rabbits ,small pigs and sometimes chickens. And yes they look like they are trying to take a breath. Till there eyes pop out of there heads and there heart stops .
I have kept these bigger snakes and seen with my own eyes how they kill . This is why I don't keep the bigger snakes any more . The biggest snake I have now is a female red tail . That if rapped around your neck would asphyxiat you but when they rap around your chest and squeeze it will stop your heart before you asphyxiat.

 

[Jd3]

Snakes don't kill by asphyxiation. The death is caused by cardiac arrest. Just saying there should be more evidence before judgements are out.


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Cardiac arrest kills everyone. "is the cessation of normal circulation of the blood due to failure of the heart to contract effectively".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest

Asphyxiation causes cardiac arrest. Cardiac arrest is when your heart no worky.... Then your heart, tissues and brain die from hypoxia.

Everyone experiences cardiac arrest when they die. In itself it is NOT a cause of death. Something always leads to cardiac arrest. In asphyxiation it is hypoxia. In others it is cancer, or heart disease, complications from chronic diabetes, htn, dehydration, trauma, etc. when an autopsy lists "SUDDEN cardiac arrest" as a cause of death it is because no other singular cause of death is indicated.

For instance, this case asphyxiation is noted. It is a known and suspected cause. There as signs of asphyxiation. Contusions, petechia, etc.

I can go on and on.

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Funny how you both are so quick to say it was the snake. Do either of you own a snake? Were you there? Your entire arguement is also invalid considering nothings been released. There is nothing i hate more than people who act like they know everything about everything and quickly hop all over people who try and give reasons as to why it wouldnt be the snake. You both quickly take sides and are quick to shut down tom and everyone else who says maybe it wasnt the snake. I have no clue if the snake did it, neither do you. Don't shoot everyone down and don't kid yourself that snakes are satans minions. Many snakes have calm and relaxed demeanors. The fact of the matter is that if it were released that it was asphyxiation, and they wanted to prove it was the snake for sure theyd release the facts that there were bite marks and other damage. Have you fallowed murder cases on tv? Things get released quickly in the media. I dont think the story adds up and i think they should of waited to put the snake down. It was wrong to kill it based off a claim and not facts.

Now you are just putting words in my mouth. I never once said "the snake did it". Do I own snakes? Yes I have kept snakes for 13 years now. But I don't see how that has to do with anything. A lot of "reptile enthusiast" are acting to nieve and don't wanna believe that the snake did it just because they are "reptile keepers". No there is not enough info out there to say the snake did it but there is also not enough info to say the snake didnt do it at this point. These large constrictors are very capable of doing things like this and it should be known.

Please tell me how my argument is invalid. It is my opinion and experiences.

i dont know I mean, i was told my argument is invalid. If you are saying steve irwin and all the other people aren't scientists you definitely don't consider yourself one. So how is my argument completely invalid and yours is completely 100% the truth? I keep a tegu and a ball python. I am definitely not a reptile enthusiast or a big keeper. But i truly believe that snakes get a horrible reputation from media, and society. I am definitely not saying it wasn't the snake, I am not saying any of your arguments are wrong, mine might be wrong, we don't know. But the facts given definitely aren't grounds for putting an animal to death and it being blamed for the death of two children. The stories just don't make any sense right now. Even if the snake crawled onto the children I honestly think the pressure from something weighing 100 pounds on top of you would wake anybody up. And i truly think even if the snake did do it, there was some sort of neglect from the owner. There had to have been some noise, some sort of warning given off. You would hear the ducting breaking, part of the ceiling breaking, a noise IF the snake fell. You both said that the snake didn't "fall" but its what all the sources are saying that I have heard. That'd make a decent thump. Regardless i don't want to argue or make anyone mad cause its none of our business in the first place and the fact of the matter is that no one knows. No point in arguing over something unknown. I do think though that you are wrong about those people not knowing anything. You don't have to be a scientist to learn and study. If you work with reptiles for so long you learn things and pick up on them. You can study and you can discover unknown things. I am sure they know more than any of us when it comes to reptiles.They shouldn't be tossed aside because they aren't titled as dr's or scientist. I just hope that whoever is investigating gets it accurate and does a thorough search. I hate when it's so easy to pin something on someone or something that they just automatically say it was that and thats that. We will see what develops

I know without a doubt that almost all of your facts are wrong. That is why you're argument is invalid. Start from the top, and provide a source. You took the time the enumerate them. Time to take the time to back them up.

You'll notice quickly they're not close.

5 psi? No. I can push 5 psi with my pinky finger. You've apparently never picked up a kid or watched how they play....

 

[wellington]

Jd3, You say things like this, with no proof of your own. You can't expect everyone to take your word just because you say it. Maybe some might know you more personally then others, but I am sure most of us don't. What profession are you in that you have seen so much? Doctor? paramedic? are the only two I know of that could have seen as much as you say you have and I don't know any that has seen as much or had to do as much as you say you have. Unless you were a medic in the service and actually served during war on the front lines. Many people in the world have seen worse then you. Don't act like you are the only one. Unless you back it up with proof, you are just saying words. That is the hard and sometimes bad thing with the Internet. We get to talk to people that we don't really get to know personally. We on,y have their words to go on. I am not meaning this as an attack. Please don't take it that way. It's just fact, no one has come up with any proof on the knowledge they are saying they have.

 

[Jd3]

So what you are saying is that these guys are not scientists. Your right two of them are Doctors. Doctors that spend time researching the animals that we keep in the wild .
That do the research on how and why snakes kill . So you are telling me a green anaconda grabs a croc that holds it's breath for an hour will wait to asphyxiat it . I will do the search for you and post the links. And yes I feed my snakes live rats ,rabbits ,small pigs and sometimes chickens. And yes they look like they are trying to take a breath. Till there eyes pop out of there heads and there heart stops .
I have kept these bigger snakes and seen with my own eyes how they kill . This is why I don't keep the bigger snakes any more . The biggest snake I have now is a female red tail . That if rapped around your neck would asphyxiat you but when they rap around your chest and squeeze it will stop your heart before you asphyxiat.

For practical purposes I want you to understand that regardless of where it squeezes its goal is to stop blood flow thus causing lack of oxygenation of cells. It doesn't matter where it squeezes.

If it squeezes the chest the real situation is it is preventing chest expansion and thus air movement.

Your arguing a silly part since ultimately cardiac arrest isn't a COD. it is death.

---

Jd3, You say things like this, with no proof of your own. You can't expect everyone to take your word just because you say it. Maybe some might know you more personally then others, but I am sure most of us don't. What profession are you in that you have seen so much? Doctor? paramedic? are the only two I know of that could have seen as much as you say you have and I don't know any that has seen as much or had to do as much as you say you have. Unless you were a medic in the service and actually served during war on the front lines. Many people in the world have seen worse then you. Don't act like you are the only one. Unless you back it up with proof, you are just saying words. That is the hard and sometimes bad thing with the Internet. We get to talk to people that we don't really get to know personally. We on,y have their words to go on. I am not meaning this as an attack. Please don't take it that way. It's just fact, no one has come up with any proof on the knowledge they are saying they have.

I am a paramedic and was a PJ in Iraq.

Next question?

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And fact check my arguments. The Internet can help you there.

---

Jd3, You say things like this, with no proof of your own. You can't expect everyone to take your word just because you say it. Maybe some might know you more personally then others, but I am sure most of us don't. What profession are you in that you have seen so much? Doctor? paramedic? are the only two I know of that could have seen as much as you say you have and I don't know any that has seen as much or had to do as much as you say you have. Unless you were a medic in the service and actually served during war on the front lines. Many people in the world have seen worse then you. Don't act like you are the only one. Unless you back it up with proof, you are just saying words. That is the hard and sometimes bad thing with the Internet. We get to talk to people that we don't really get to know personally. We on,y have their words to go on. I am not meaning this as an attack. Please don't take it that way. It's just fact, no one has come up with any proof on the knowledge they are saying they have.

How many medics and doctors DO you know? Because this weekend I worked 2 cardiac arrests and had a motorcycle crash withs compound fx.

Any medic In a system that runs more than a few calls per day will have experienced many calls.

I happen to be a supervisor and FTO in my system so I've been there in more of these situations ths many. Once you testify a time or two and a reliable the DA tends to rely on you more, too.

Like I said. Factually speaking there is nothing to say this story isn't possible. The fact is that dozens of investigators have been in involved.

---

THIS was in my pocket from the package of a body bag today.

Ever used a toe tag before?

---

Point is simple. If you're going to enumerate a post with a series of "facts" at least one of me could be true.

They are opinions when you state them like science.

 

[Irish]

So what you are saying is that these guys are not scientists. Your right two of them are Doctors. Doctors that spend time researching the animals that we keep in the wild .
That do the research on how and why snakes kill . So you are telling me a green anaconda grabs a croc that holds it's breath for an hour will wait to asphyxiat it . I will do the search for you and post the links. And yes I feed my snakes live rats ,rabbits ,small pigs and sometimes chickens. And yes they look like they are trying to take a breath. Till there eyes pop out of there heads and there heart stops .
I have kept these bigger snakes and seen with my own eyes how they kill . This is why I don't keep the bigger snakes any more . The biggest snake I have now is a female red tail . That if rapped around your neck would asphyxiat you but when they rap around your chest and squeeze it will stop your heart before you asphyxiat.

For practical purposes I want you to understand that regardless of where it squeezes its goal is to stop blood flow thus causing lack of oxygenation of cells. It doesn't matter where it squeezes.

If it squeezes the chest the real situation is it is preventing chest expansion and thus air movement.

Your arguing a silly part since ultimately cardiac arrest isn't a COD. it is death.

---

Jd3, You say things like this, with no proof of your own. You can't expect everyone to take your word just because you say it. Maybe some might know you more personally then others, but I am sure most of us don't. What profession are you in that you have seen so much? Doctor? paramedic? are the only two I know of that could have seen as much as you say you have and I don't know any that has seen as much or had to do as much as you say you have. Unless you were a medic in the service and actually served during war on the front lines. Many people in the world have seen worse then you. Don't act like you are the only one. Unless you back it up with proof, you are just saying words. That is the hard and sometimes bad thing with the Internet. We get to talk to people that we don't really get to know personally. We on,y have their words to go on. I am not meaning this as an attack. Please don't take it that way. It's just fact, no one has come up with any proof on the knowledge they are saying they have.

I am a paramedic and was a PJ in Iraq.

Next question?

---

And fact check my arguments. The Internet can help you there.

---

Jd3, You say things like this, with no proof of your own. You can't expect everyone to take your word just because you say it. Maybe some might know you more personally then others, but I am sure most of us don't. What profession are you in that you have seen so much? Doctor? paramedic? are the only two I know of that could have seen as much as you say you have and I don't know any that has seen as much or had to do as much as you say you have. Unless you were a medic in the service and actually served during war on the front lines. Many people in the world have seen worse then you. Don't act like you are the only one. Unless you back it up with proof, you are just saying words. That is the hard and sometimes bad thing with the Internet. We get to talk to people that we don't really get to know personally. We on,y have their words to go on. I am not meaning this as an attack. Please don't take it that way. It's just fact, no one has come up with any proof on the knowledge they are saying they have.

How many medics and doctors DO you know? Because this weekend I worked 2 cardiac arrests and had a motorcycle crash withs compound fx.

Any medic In a system that runs more than a few calls per day will have experienced many calls.

I happen to be a supervisor and FTO in my system so I've been there in more of these situations ths many. Once you testify a time or two and a reliable the DA tends to rely on you more, too.

Like I said. Factually speaking there is nothing to say this story isn't possible. The fact is that dozens of investigators have been in involved.

---

THIS was in my pocket from the package of a body bag today.

Ever used a toe tag before?

---

---

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---

 

[wellington]

We are going to keep this a civil thread. No name calling or attacking. The best thing is to wait and see if all the results are ever released. Unless you were there and investigated this, then it is all assumptions, guesses and opinions.

 

[Jd3]

Sorry I said it like a dbag. I stand by my argument, the science and experience behind it, and that people want to grasp at straws here.

There is a saying in medicine. When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras. This applies here. Do we know how this was found? The kids could have been found wrapped by the snake... You can't say this didn't happen without that stuff. Saying you don't believe it because you don't want to is like saying I don't have to poop because I don't want to get off the couch.

---

I am not being condescending. Wellington straight asked how I could know or have seen these things. I answered.

Lots and lots of people have seen worse than me. But I guarantee you I've seen the things I say I have and that is relevant to what I'm arguing. That If you think your ever going to hear the gory play by play if how these kids died you're in fairy tale land. That isn't how this works.

 

[144 Grandpa Turtle]

The main problem is the article true or false did its job Evan here it brote out the fears and night mares of the people Evan those that known better. And it shows how we need a new meaning for exotic pets because now if its not a cat or dog it's exotic pet

 

[poison]

Echo, we are simply asking for proof. Nobody is taking any of this personal. As Jd3 said, you were passing around your opnions as fact with no proof.

 

[mike taylor]

Yes , your right on some of the things you said . If a snake raps around you and squeezes . It will put you in shock then cardiac arrest then death . If it raps your neck asphyxiation then cardiac arrest then death . But we can go on all night if you want . If the snake killed these kids there will be more than asphyxiation. There's going to be bites,broken snake teeth the eyes will have broken blood vessels . Yes rock pythons are aggressive and are very bitey . Snakes do kill and not eat the animals . This could have been the case . But I don't know for sure and none of us do . If it was a unlicensed snake the keeper needs to be held responsible. I love the bigger snakes . But I also think no one should be aloud to keep them in there home . These snakes need to be kept only by zoos or professionals .Not to be sold in every pet store . They need to stay in the wild. I know first hand on the dangers of keeping these guys . When you have a two hundred pounds of muscles that does not want to go back in there cage there is nothing four people can do .
I'm all for the reptile way of life. Being a former keeper of rock pythons / Burmese pythons and much more . No one can say to me they are safe tame animals. They let you think you are in control for years . But once they don't want you to mess with them you will know real fast.
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[Jd3]

I never suggested we need to do crazy bans or anything. Fact is this snake was already illegal.

What I'm saying is that we're ignoring logic.

 

[poison]

As i said to Poison, I might be wrong, you guys might be wrong, no one knows.

What? This is the point I was trying to get across lol.

 

[Jd3]

Btw, it actually sounds like we agree on everything. Just the semantics of "cardiac arrest".

There isn't a good reason to have a snake like this In a home collection.

The list of illegal animals removed from this "zoo" is pretty long. This shop had even been inspected by the mayor....
http://www.citynews.ca/2013/08/09/zoo-staff-seize-euthanize-animals-after-python-kills-2-boys/

---

As poison pointed out I do not think the guy has changed his story. I think the media has learned details more clearly. I show that evolution in the links I posted earlier.

This is common in many many fatalities in the news. The reality is we prob will not ever see the whole picture.

 

[poison]

NOBODY IS SAYING IT WAS 100% THE SNAKE! We are saying that the evidence that has been released so far does not lead away from the snake.

 

[mike taylor]

Yep we will have to agree to disagree on that point . I will look in all my books and on line. To find the research on the cardiac arrest part . When I was keeping these guys they let you know who is in control and believe me it's not the keeper . It's like keeping a time bomb . This is why I keep smaller snakes and got into keeping tortoise . I have friends that keep
keep everything from rock pythons to tigers. From my experience they need to out law them from private owners or things like this is going to keep happening .
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