Squirt’s upgrade

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Okay, leave the temps as is for today, but instead of bringing them back, make them a bit warmer. If it's an early caught RI, raising temperatures should help.

Did you try to flush her eye with saline solution?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Okay, leave the temps as is for today, but instead of bringing them back, make them a bit warmer. If it's an early caught RI, raising temperatures should help.

Did you try to flush her eye with saline solution?

Ok will do, I just don’t understand what’s caused it, the humidity has been quite high, in the 90’s a lot of the time, do you think we’ve possibly over done it? I’ve not poured since being here cause I noticed it’s nice and high, it was only the one day it was like 76 so I gave a light mist, but I won’t be doing that for now.
She’s still not coming out but the bubble has gone for now, just a little watery again😕getting some saline today

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

As I see it, either temperatures aren't what she likes or she was stressed by all the changes and got sick. Also, she may react this way to the new foods you have introduced (plantain, filaree and such) - she hasn't eaten anything like this for years.

It seems like like lowering temperatures didn't work. So we need to raise up - this will help with sickness, digestion and she may like higher temps better.

If mangling with temps won't work, a vet visit may be necessary.

P.S. - what is the exact distance between substrate and UVB tube?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

As I see it, either temperatures aren't what she likes or she was stressed by all the changes and got sick. Also, she may react this way to the new foods you have introduced (plantain, filaree and such) - she hasn't eaten anything like this for years.

It seems like like lowering temperatures didn't work. So we need to raise up - this will help with sickness, digestion and she may like higher temps better.

If mangling with temps won't work, a vet visit may be necessary.

P.S. - what is the exact distance between substrate and UVB tube?

Yeah perhaps stress has played a part here😞I’m holding off on the new foods, I’m a bit nervous whacking them up higher than what they were cause under the one bulb would already hit the 90’s, I’d kind of like to avoid that if I can😕with the previous temps the hides were 80-82 which seem ideal? I dread the thought of a vet visit cause idk if any of them really know what they are doing with torts here😞 im not sure on the exact distance but ill measure and get back to you, needs to be about 18 inches right?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

You should not be afraid of 90 under the CHEs. Getting 110 under the lamp at top of the shell level is definitely something to avoid. As well as ambient in 90s.

Tortoise Table has a list of vets in UK, who, presumably, know how to work with tortoises. A good exotics vet is your friend. Not everything can be treated at home with a heat lamp and antifungal creme. I think, you have enough knowledge to tell a bad vet from a good one (and stop him from giving vitamin A shots). A small talk about redfooteds husbandry will help. While his recommendations can be different, he may have valid reasoning behind them. Also, prescribing medications without tests is usually a bad sign.

For a redfoot I will shoot for a distance of 20-21" At 18" Desert 12% lamp gives UVI of 4 which is a bit too much.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

You should not be afraid of 90 under the CHEs. Getting 110 under the lamp at top of the shell level is definitely something to avoid. As well as ambient in 90s.

Tortoise Table has a list of vets in UK, who, presumably, know how to work with tortoises. A good exotics vet is your friend. Not everything can be treated at home with a heat lamp and antifungal creme. I think, you have enough knowledge to tell a bad vet from a good one (and stop him from giving vitamin A shots). A small talk about redfooteds husbandry will help. While his recommendations can be different, he may have valid reasoning behind them. Also, prescribing medications without tests is usually a bad sign.

For a redfoot I will shoot for a distance of 20-21" At 18" Desert 12% lamp gives UVI of 4 which is a bit too much.

Ok fair enough, I’ll raise the temps shortly, just getting ready to head out and buy the saline, I’ll definitely check out that list of vets, I have a pretty good knowledge on all the basics now but tbh I’m not entirely sure what the red flags are treatment wise with vets, never had dealings with an exotic vet personally, my fear is they give totally wrong advice and her owner wishes to follow it, we’ve come so far with her care, it’d be a shame if it gets undone😣

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

You can explain to owner beforehand that vets don't learn tortoise care and husbandry at college. They are certainly trained and knowledgeable about anatomy, patophysiology, symptoms, medications, reading test results and such. But care info is likely what they get from googling "tortoise care sheet". Of course, there are exclusions.

I would not rush to the vet yet - the symptoms are very mild and the stress from taking her to the vet can make things worse. Does she still yawning often?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

You can explain to owner beforehand that vets don't learn tortoise care and husbandry at college. They are certainly trained and knowledgeable about anatomy, patophysiology, symptoms, medications, reading test results and such. But care info is likely what they get from googling "tortoise care sheet". Of course, there are exclusions.

I would not rush to the vet yet - the symptoms are very mild and the stress from taking her to the vet can make things worse. Does she still yawning often?

I can’t seem to find the list of uk vets on the tortoise table, don’t suppose you happen to have the link? Mmm I’ll definitely explain that, but tbh when he’s faced with a ‘pro’ he naturally takes their word over mine unfortunately, which I do get but obviously it’s a little frustrating😕
I agree that I don’t think she’s quite at the stage of a vet visit just yet, I’d be far more concerned if she wasn’t eating, though I’d like to avoid getting to the point of her being off her food😣

She was yawning quite a bit this morning but it could just have been cause she’d only been up a few hours, when watching her this afternoon for a bit I didn’t notice her doing any, though admittedly it’s hard to keep a close eye 24/7 cause I’m looking after their little dog, she’s very demanding herself, lots of balls to juggle🥲I haven’t informed her owner of these symptoms just yet cause I’m hoping I can get them under control myself, but if I can’t I’m going to have to tell him soon

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Here is the link:

UK Vets by Area

UK Vets by Area

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

And don't worry that you have to tweak the setup and that numbers were looking ideal. Most household (in sense, that not medical or scientific grade) equipment is not 100% precise, temp guns aren't purposed for measuring body temperatures and so on. Also, there is some variety in preferred temperatures between redfoot populations. You need to adjust things a bit to make your tortoise in your environment happy. Numbers are guidelines but not an absolute law.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Here is the link:

UK Vets by Area

UK Vets by Area

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

And don't worry that you have to tweak the setup and that numbers were looking ideal. Most household (in sense, that not medical or scientific grade) equipment is not 100% precise, temp guns aren't purposed for measuring body temperatures and so on. Also, there is some variety in preferred temperatures between redfoot populations. You need to adjust things a bit to make your tortoise in your environment happy. Numbers are guidelines but not an absolute law.

Thank you for the link! Ugh scratch that about her yawning, just sat watching, did about 3 in close succession😞
She has however plodded out and finished off a spider plant🥲

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Good girl!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Good girl!

On route for saline, and one of the vets listed is the vet we were looking at for his snake, about an hour away but they seem reputable, I think we’ll give them a call for a chat and some advice tomorrow, they’re closed today.

The UV is exactly 18inches, it’s on one of the beams so could probably be raised an inch or two, hopefully her owner won’t mind moving it up, can too strong a uv be harmful?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

At this point, I think she's healthy If you have some treat like chicken breast, mango or mushroom - try to lure her out. Place pieces in some unusual places.

At 18 inches it's not harmful, but may be uncomfortable. Try turning it off or vice versa - leave only the uvb light and turn off ambient LED. This could be a reason for her to stay in the hide. Of course, it's no match to the sunlight but she may not like it.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

At this point, I think she's healthy If you have some treat like chicken breast, mango or mushroom - try to lure her out. Place pieces in some unusual places.

At 18 inches it's not harmful, but may be uncomfortable. Try turning it off or vice versa - leave only the uvb light and turn off ambient LED. This could be a reason for her to stay in the hide. Of course, it's no match to the sunlight but she may not like it.

I’m going to go in the fridge and get her a bunch of her faves, I think it’ll be a good idea to get a few more serving slates and spreading the feed round like you say, hopefully it’ll encourage the mooching. Actually just caught her out again! I think I may potentially leave temps as they are for now, cause seeing her out is encouraging, perhaps it was just taking time, might up them tomorrow though depending how she is, if I see the bubble again I definitely will though regardless.
And I think I’m going to buy a dimmer for the leds, they are brighter than her old set up so perhaps she’s not liking that.

Lol look at the nub left of the spider plant🤣

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I’m going to go in the fridge and get her a bunch of her faves, I think it’ll be a good idea to get a few more serving slates and spreading the feed round like you say, hopefully it’ll encourage the mooching. Actually just caught her out again! I think I may potentially leave temps as they are for now, cause seeing her out is encouraging, perhaps it was just taking time, might up them tomorrow though depending how she is, if I see the bubble again I definitely will though regardless.
And I think I’m going to buy a dimmer for the leds, they are brighter than her old set up so perhaps she’s not liking that.

Lol look at the nub left of the spider plant🤣

Okay, let's give her more time. It's always hard to do changes in their pace

Poor spider plant... That's why "the mother plant" should be outside the enclosure However, Besha never tried to chomp them... She took a bite of chia sprouts today and wasn't impressed at least. By the way - it's a nice plant to try. Seeds are sold in grocery stores and sprout easily in a couple of days (leave them in water for a couple of hours and then plant).

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Okay, let's give her more time. It's always hard to do changes in their pace

Poor spider plant... That's why "the mother plant" should be outside the enclosure However, Besha never tried to chomp them... She took a bite of chia sprouts today and wasn't impressed at least. By the way - it's a nice plant to try. Seeds are sold in grocery stores and sprout easily in a couple of days (leave them in water for a couple of hours and then plant).

Yeah I’m not letting her get hold of my mother plant, she’s too beautiful haha, oooo I did see people recommend trying chia so might get some for her🙂
She’s currently chowing down on all her favourites❤️really encouraging to see!!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Yeah I’m not letting her get hold of my mother plant, she’s too beautiful haha, oooo I did see people recommend trying chia so might get some for her🙂
She’s currently chowing down on all her favourites❤️really encouraging to see!!

Oh! I wish I had such meals like she has! I even don't mind some greens...

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Oh! I wish I had such meals like she has! I even don't mind some greens...

Haha, we do spoil her food wise🥲

I informed his daughter about the issues she has going on, she asked her friend to come up who is training to become a vet, she’s not the most up on tortoise but her nan has owned a few for over 60 years, so had her on the phone too, a lot of the things didn’t sit quite right, she said her beak is looking very pale, particularly the underside indicating an infection, but squirt has had that colouring for years with no issues, when I look at photos, a lot of red foots have a pale lower jaw?
Her nan said she probably needs the vet and maybe they’ll give her a vitamin injection which after what you said earlier was another red flag that they aren’t quite up to date, though I’ll admit I haven’t really researched about vitamin injections or common mistakes vets make with their treatment, so I couldn’t really say anything, I probably should start doing more research on that side of things. She suggested something in the viv might not be tortoise friendly which is fair point to make, but again I’m at a loss for what that could be, I’ve been so careful researching all the materials we’ve used.
She then brought up the possibility that her lethargic behaviour could be indicative of her possibly being egg bound, something I’d never even thought of! I don’t personally believe that’s what is going on here, but it did get me curious, she’s at an age where it wouldn’t have been unusual for her to have laid some infertile eggs, however from what I’ve read, they don’t always necessarily produce any, is that right? Or is it a ‘time of the month’ situation where she HAS to lay once or twice a year?? Could she go her whole life without doing so?
She said about constipation, but that can’t be the issue, we gave her a soak today and flushed her eye, she had a massive clear out, another thing needing a close eye, is that her poop was finally becoming more formed and healthy looking, some still is but a lot of it was back to diarrhoea and chunks of food, she’s obviously not digesting properly again and I can only put that down to the lack of movement currently😕
Her last hypothesis was that stress has caused her to become sick or it’s her still adjusting. Said it was probably worth raising the temps back but Id say despite her still not as active as I’d like, she’s come out a little more today, so I’m going to leave the temps just one more night and up them tomorrow if there’s still little change.

Overall I’m just back to feeling very stressed and worried about her, which sucks after that first week of her in the upgrade, thinking I’d finally got things perfect for her and she was enjoying it, it was such a huge weight lifted after months of stress, but it feels never ending at this point😣
It’s all very frustrating, it feels like I have most the knowledge possible to get things right for her, but applying it isn’t giving the desired results😞I’m constantly researching and trying to learn and have definitely got a good understanding on all the basics and common mistakes, but there’s still clearly things I’m not experienced enough on..

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I wish I were a vet...
1. If the inner soft tissues of the mouth and tongue are pale - this is one of the signs of infection. As I understand it - it doesn't apply to keratin coloration.
2. Vitamin injections - it's a common mistake made by exotic vets. Aquatic turtles may have vitamin A deficiency and critical conditions are corrected by injection. Tortoises rare have vitamin A deficiency (they get plenty of it from greens they eat) and when vitamin A shot is administered this results in overdose with severe side effects.
3. I don't know if eggs can result in lethargy. Trouble using hind legs, prolapse or calcium deficiency are common. A simple X-ray will show. Some tortoises lay eggs regularly, some may not develop them at all.
4. If she has runny stool there are several common causes: low temperatures, lack of fiber and too much watery foods/fruit or parasites.

You've done a great job at researching, asking questions and building everything together. As I see it - everything is spot on. I'm puzzled as much as you.

I suggest to start a new thread. Document her setup and measurements, diet and all symptoms - runny stool, watery eye, good appetite and lowered activity (and whatever else I'm missing). And let's ask for help from other great members here.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I wish I were a vet...
1. If the inner soft tissues of the mouth and tongue are pale - this is one of the signs of infection. As I understand it - it doesn't apply to keratin coloration.
2. Vitamin injections - it's a common mistake made by exotic vets. Aquatic turtles may have vitamin A deficiency and critical conditions are corrected by injection. Tortoises rare have vitamin A deficiency (they get plenty of it from greens they eat) and when vitamin A shot is administered this results in overdose with severe side effects.
3. I don't know if eggs can result in lethargy. Trouble using hind legs, prolapse or calcium deficiency are common. A simple X-ray will show. Some tortoises lay eggs regularly, some may not develop them at all.
4. If she has runny stool there are several common causes: low temperatures, lack of fiber and too much watery foods/fruit or parasites.

You've done a great job at researching, asking questions and building everything together. As I see it - everything is spot on. I'm puzzled as much as you.

I suggest to start a new thread. Document her setup and measurements, diet and all symptoms - runny stool, watery eye, good appetite and lowered activity (and whatever else I'm missing). And let's ask for help from other great members here.

I’ve never even thought to look out for the inside of her mouth being pale, but when I’ve seen her yawn, I’d say it is pale inside. Okay I’ll definitely mention that about the injections, I really don’t want her having any😣maybe she needs a full mot, she’s never had a check so now seems as good a time as any if things don’t improve.
With her diarrhoea, temp isn’t likely the issue as both ways I’m measuring(combo and gun) are giving similar results, fiber wise I try to giver some of the dried grasses and flower mix, soaked in some water to make it more appealing, that seemed to do the trick for a while but things seem to be going back to how they were poop wise😞perhaps I am offering too much watery foods, but everything I feed and the ratios don’t seem off😕

I think you’re right, I need to get a new thread up and hopefully they’ll be more folks to chiming in because I’m truly stumped.. I have this fear that squirt doesn’t have the best genetics, she was from a rubbish pet store, perhaps that’s catching up with her, idk😞
I just pray it’s nothing I’ve done, I feel this strong amount of guilt that I’ve potentially put her in a position to become unwell, it’s really upsetting me.