Traumatic Day - Bladder Stone

OliveW

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First thing this morning, an hour earlier than usual, Tortimer was at the edge of his burrow. I let him sleep in there last night, his location of choice, because it was only going down to 70 degrees.

It appeared that he was struggling to get out, so I went outside to get him, thinking he had dug it at too much of an angle, or something. At first I just moved him to a sunny spot in the grass. Within a few minutes, it became clear that there was something very serious wrong with him. He was repeatedly going deep into his shell, and back out again. Deeper than I have ever seen him go in. He did this quite a few times, then tried to walk. He had no use of his back legs. I thought he had frozen and this was my fault for letting him sleep in his burrow.

My heart was in my throat, on the inside. But, being a mother of four, I can remain calm, logical, and functional on the outside. I picked him up to take him to the bathtub for a warm soak, while I did my research, as I know a soak helps just about everything. I didn't have time to fill his outdoor pool with warm water, so he was heading for a bathtub. As soon as I picked him up, I saw a HUGE white rock, with blood on it, and immediately knew what was happening. I checked his vent, which had some fresh blood around it, but not ripped. I put him in a warm soak, where he stayed for two hours without complaint.

I turned on his space heater in the bathroom for extra comfort, and of course checked on him constantly. After two hours, it had warmed up outside and he was seeming perkier. We took him out to graze in his favorite spot, his rear legs once again functioning, and he was walking around as strong as ever. He grazed for a couple of hours, then I checked his vent again, and it was a little swollen, but he kept sucking it in and out. So, he went back and soaked in warm water for another two hours. He is now tucked into his heated, safe bed, so I had time to come on here and post.

I'm completely devastated that I let this happen to him. I'm trying to wrap my head around WHY it happened. I had been worried about this in the past because his pee is always crystal clear. He pees a LOT. He doesn't hold his pee, which I knew could cause it. But he also never passes any urates. Not even white liquid. I'm completely at a loss. I soak him nearly every single day for 30 minutes or so. His diet is almost all grazing. He's been gaining weight stead, pooping normally, and generally healthy, I thought.

This stone was gigantic. Bigger than an XL chicken egg. I'm so thankful he got it out on his own, but feel like the worst tort mom ever that I let him get this stone in the first place. I had planned to cut down soaks to three times per week, now that we've had him four months, and I thought his health was on track. That's not going to happen now. We are staying on the daily schedule.

I had some kind of mom's intuition that he had a stone. For a few weeks now, I've been really monitoring his urine like a crazy person, and even posted about my concern that it was always clear. Could our Tortimer have some kind of disease that caused this? Other than soaks, what can I do to keep it from happening again? Every time I think about seeing that stone, I get lightheaded and feel like I'm going to pass out. I can't let him go through this again.
 

wellington

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First thing I would change is never letting him sleep in that low of temps. I am assuming the pic in your avatar is of a sully that is named Tortimer. They should be in a heated night box set at 80 not lower.
I would also start giving him some mazuri and cactus even hay. Unless your yard was planted with him in mind only grazing to me isn't enough. I have leopards who graze all summer but I still give mazuri and a mix of greens every so often as my yard was not planted with all the weeds, flowers, leaves they would need to make a proper varied diet.
 

Yvonne G

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Does Tortimer get veg from the brassica family? Too much of this causes stones too.
 

OliveW

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Does Tortimer get veg from the brassica family? Too much of this causes stones too.

I'm going to look that up and check immediately.

First thing I would change is never letting him sleep in that low of temps. I am assuming the pic in your avatar is of a sully that is named Tortimer. They should be in a heated night box set at 80 not lower.
I would also start giving him some mazuri and cactus even hay. Unless your yard was planted with him in mind only grazing to me isn't enough. I have leopards who graze all summer but I still give mazuri and a mix of greens every so often as my yard was not planted with all the weeds, flowers, leaves they would need to make a proper varied diet.

Yes, sorry - he is a sully. I need to add it to my signature. He won't be sleeping in his burrow again.

I do give him Romaine at times, and just ordered him some timothy hay. Can Sulcata eat regular Mazuri, or just LS?
Oh, and I also pick him a lot of leaves that he can't reach, and he does eat cactus pads after I take the spikies off them.
 

Maggie3fan

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first of all...you didn't cause this, second of all you prolly couldn't have stopped it...I had a 100+ pound male Sulcata named Bob. I soaked him daily from he was about 2 years old. I was just keeping him for a couple of weeks then she'd adopted him out. But we bonded and so I kept him for the next 15 years. I hand dug him a swimming hole and he went in it daily during Spring and Summer. I was confident he was well hydrated. But when he was 17 years old he had a bladder stone as big as a baseball...so ya just never know...stop blaming yourself and make things better for your tortoise.
Mary Knobbins...100_5048.JPG
 

wellington

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I'm going to look that up and check immediately.



Yes, sorry - he is a sully. I need to add it to my signature. He won't be sleeping in his burrow again.

I do give him Romaine at times, and just ordered him some timothy hay. Can Sulcata eat regular Mazuri, or just LS?
Oh, and I also pick him a lot of leaves that he can't reach, and he does eat cactus pads after I take the spikies off them.
Get orchard grass hay next time. Timothy hay is very woody and stiff. I would soak it first to try and soften it some.
 

OliveW

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Get orchard grass hay next time. Timothy hay is very woody and stiff. I would soak it first to try and soften it some.

I couldn't find orchard hay. And it said it had more protein and didn't think he was allow much of that anyway.

Mazuri LS says it's just compacted timothy hay. I'll definitely soften it for him.

I'm completely done trusting the Tortoise Table!
 
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wellington

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I think the tortoise table is a good source. What about them do you think you got bad info? The arugula? That's actually a good green to feed. But it should make up a small part of the diet. Basically everything you can get to feed should be a small ingredient of a large diet. Grazing is probably the best but if it's just grass or just one type of weed then it's not going to be a varied diet and more items need to be added in.
I don't use the Mazuri LS so I have no idea what it is.
As far as Timothy hay, the pellets i have used but the hay i thought was horrible and my torts wouldn't eat it. To me it's like feeding more sticks then hay. The orchard hay they will eat same with alfalfa hay but I don't feed as much of that. Your sully is bigger so he may be fine with it.
The biggest thing to remember is variety and if the info you are using is referring to your species or a different one.
 

Maggie3fan

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I go to a feed store in the next town, and I can scrape up the loose hay from ALL the bales. So my hay consists of timothy (fresh it's nice hay) orchard grass hay, Alfalfa, Oat Hay, and something else and I get the biggest bag I can find and stuff it full of that hay. $10 I get 2 bags a winter and so far, with all the Sulcata who have stayed or just run thru here, Mary Knobbins is the only adult Sulcata who won't eat it. So we are having that fight right now. She won't eat hay or go out and graze and I won't feed her. So...who wins this game of wills??!
 

OliveW

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I think the tortoise table is a good source. What about them do you think you got bad info? The arugula? That's actually a good green to feed. But it should make up a small part of the diet. Basically everything you can get to feed should be a small ingredient of a large diet. Grazing is probably the best but if it's just grass or just one type of weed then it's not going to be a varied diet and more items need to be added in.
I don't use the Mazuri LS so I have no idea what it is.
As far as Timothy hay, the pellets i have used but the hay i thought was horrible and my torts wouldn't eat it. To me it's like feeding more sticks then hay. The orchard hay they will eat same with alfalfa hay but I don't feed as much of that. Your sully is bigger so he may be fine with it.
The biggest thing to remember is variety and if the info you are using is referring to your species or a different one.

Grazing on our property has thousands of types of weeds, very literally. I had one bag of grass seed that I haphazardly threw in front of the house, the rest of the 8 acres consists of whatever mother nature grew there. My "yard" consists of mowed down green whatever. Tortimer has his favorite spots, but walks the property and decides what he wants to eat and what he doesn't.

As far as the tort table, yes it gave green light to arugula and brussel sprouts for occasional, which is exactly what it was. Most days Tortimer just grazes. About once a week he'll get some produce, but not much in comparison to the amount he grazes.

I've got some Timothy Hay coming prime today. We do have feed stores, as I live in a farming community. Amazon Prime is just faster than I can get it together and get to town. And on Sunday, lots of things not open, or just open a few hours. It's the Bible Belt, people are busy with church, then church lunches/activities, then church again in the evening.

Anyway, today will tell if he likes Timothy hay or not. He's a big, tough boy. I don't think I'll have to soak it, but I'll see how it goes.
 

OliveW

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I go to a feed store in the next town, and I can scrape up the loose hay from ALL the bales. So my hay consists of timothy (fresh it's nice hay) orchard grass hay, Alfalfa, Oat Hay, and something else and I get the biggest bag I can find and stuff it full of that hay. $10 I get 2 bags a winter and so far, with all the Sulcata who have stayed or just run thru here, Mary Knobbins is the only adult Sulcata who won't eat it. So we are having that fight right now. She won't eat hay or go out and graze and I won't feed her. So...who wins this game of wills??!

I'm going to hit up the feed stores tomorrow, I might see about a deal like that. Thanks for the idea!

Of course Mary won't eat it. She KNOWS she's special. 🥰 😂
 

OliveW

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Tortimer's vent looks completely normal today. He's in a warm soak.

In addition to the hay coming today, I've ordered a small bag each of original Mazuri and LS. Obviously, I'll try the LS first, but if he won't eat it, I'll try the original.
 

wellington

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That's the problem with occasionally. How often exactly is that. Each has their own idea of it.
Have you owned him since hatching? I'm guessing not, I don't remember, but the stone problem most likely started before you ever got him and just kept growing until now. Being on the right path now, he may never have another.
 

Hai

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My sully had surgery a couple months ago from a stone. My vet told me not to give him any mizuri and stay away from stuff that had a lot of calcium in it. I was told he could have it again in the future. Which I pray not, we it was over 3k for the surgery. 20220815_144841.jpg20220827_134226.jpg
 

OliveW

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That's the problem with occasionally. How often exactly is that. Each has their own idea of it.
Have you owned him since hatching? I'm guessing not, I don't remember, but the stone problem most likely started before you ever got him and just kept growing until now. Being on the right path now, he may never have another.

I was thinking the exact same thing earlier - I wonder what their definition of "occasionally" is? To me, it as a small amount of something different once a week. Maybe they mean a few times per year? I don't know.

No, we have not had him from a hatchling. This coming Tuesday will make 4 months since we've had him. He was just over 5 lbs when we got him. Last time I weighed him, he was about 8.5 lbs.

When we brought him home, he was SO THIRSTY. I didn't even know that tortoises drank. He went straight to the water hole where condensation comes out of our heat pump and drank for what felt like forever. After he stopped drinking, I was even more shocked when he put himself into the water hole and just soaked.

I found this forum after about three days Googling and being overwhelmed by all the contradictory information. I have followed Tom's care sheet religiously since getting it.

I don't know how he survived passing that stone. 😢 I still feel light headed when I think about it. I was fairly sure he would pass away when I saw it. I didn't think there was any possible way it could come out without severely damaging his insides. When he was in his warm soak for the initial two hours, I really believed I was just comforting him until he passed. My husband wanted to give him Norco, in case he was in pain, but I couldn't find any information about it, so we didn't.

But here we are today, healthy and happy as ever. My little dude is TOUGH! He even did a normal poop today.

Wanted to add - He HAS been to the vet, who gave him a clean bill of health. :mad: No x-rays were done.
 
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OliveW

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My sully had surgery a couple months ago from a stone. My vet told me not to give him any mizuri and stay away from stuff that had a lot of calcium in it. I was told he could have it again in the future. Which I pray not, we it was over 3k for the surgery. View attachment 351346View attachment 351345

Oh my goodness! That is about twice the size of the one Tortimer passed! I never even thought to keep it. I was so horrified. 😢 And it had a lot of blood on it.

What did your vet tell you to feed him, if Mazuri is off the menu?

How big is your Sully?
 

Hai

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Oh my goodness! That is about twice the size of the one Tortimer passed! I never even thought to keep it. I was so horrified. 😢 And it had a lot of blood on it.

What did your vet tell you to feed him, if Mazuri is off the menu?

How big is your Sully?
I usually feed him romaine, green leaf and dandelions and occasionally give red leaf and raddichio. I have chicory, timothy, alfalfa, orchard, fescue, bermuda growing in the grazing areas. I was told to keep away from kale, mazuri, and the usual stuff like spinach. Anything with high calcium, I'm still learning what everything can be lol. He's also needs at least 1 bath a week now. They told me since he had a stone he's prone to get it again so I have to minimize the chances of him getting it again. He had to live in the kitchen for 10 weeks since our garage is to full and cleaning poo and pee every day wasn't any fun. Plus once a week for 12 weeks he got 2 shots.
 

Hai

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Oh my goodness! That is about twice the size of the one Tortimer passed! I never even thought to keep it. I was so horrified. 😢 And it had a lot of blood on it.

What did your vet tell you to feed him, if Mazuri is off the menu?

How big is your Sully?
Oh yes I haven't measured him in a while but last time he was weighed is 55lbs
 

Warren

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My sully had surgery a couple months ago from a stone. My vet told me not to give him any mizuri and stay away from stuff that had a lot of calcium in it. I was told he could have it again in the future. Which I pray not, we it was over 3k for the surgery. View attachment 351346View attachment 351345
Sorry to hear about your Tortoise, but glad to hear they were able to save it's life. Looks like a very professional job!! I will have to limit the amount of Mazuri that I give Sammy, he eats about a cup a day with the rest of his fresh greens and grass. That is one big stone, that had to hurt!
 

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