UV lighting for 70" wide enclosure

[uscpsycho]

I am building a 70" wide enclosure and not sure what the best way to handle UV lighting is.

I could have a single 24/36/48 inch tube in the center.

Or I can put a single 24/36/48 tube on the same side as the basking spot. And this will leave a large part of the enclosure UV-free if the animal wants to get out of the UV.

Or I can have 24+36 so it covers the enclosure with UV from end to end.

Any other suggestions? What would be the best option?

 

[jaizei]

The 24" is probably the best option, have that over the basking area. Depending on how deep the enclosure is, you might be able to use a 36" angled across the basking area.

 

[Tom]

I am building a 70" wide enclosure and not sure what the best way to handle UV lighting is.

I could have a single 24/36/48 inch tube in the center.

Or I can put a single 24/36/48 tube on the same side as the basking spot. And this will leave a large part of the enclosure UV-free if the animal wants to get out of the UV.

Or I can have 24+36 so it covers the enclosure with UV from end to end.

Any other suggestions? What would be the best option?

What species are you housing? Is outdoor housing not an option?

 

[uscpsycho]

The 24" is probably the best option, have that over the basking area. Depending on how deep the enclosure is, you might be able to use a 36" angled across the basking area.

If you don't mind my asking, why would you go with the smallest option? I almost didn't even mention 24" because it seems counter intuitive for such a large cage but I'm open to all suggestions.

The cage will be 30" deep but I'm not sure why that would affect the width of the tube. How deep would you consider deep enough to upgrade to 36"?

What species are you housing? Is outdoor housing not an option?

It's a Sri Lankan star. But why would the answer be species specific? All reptiles that need UV light should have a gradient, the differences are in how long the UV is on and the intensity of the UV. But I'd think the ideal way to configure UV tubes is the same. My question is really about how much of the cage should have direct UV light vs no UV light.

I think the last option I listed isn't the best because it would give even UV lighting throughout the enclosure instead of creating a gradient. Of course I could always keep one tube off, and have the option to use both together should I ever have an animal that needs UV everywhere, but I have never owned such a reptile.

 

[Tom]

But why would the answer be species specific?

Because forest tortoise species would need lower levels than other types. The recommendation for a red foot, would be different than it would for a star.

It will be important to have strong ambient lighting, but its not critical which UV tube length you use as long as it an HO tube and the height is set correctly with a Solarmeter 6.5. A 22 inch all get the job done, and a 46" one will work fine too.

If you can get the tortoise outside for an hour now and then, you won't need indoor UV at all.

 

[uscpsycho]

Because forest tortoise species would need lower levels than other types. The recommendation for a red foot, would be different than it would for a star.

It will be important to have strong ambient lighting, but its not critical which UV tube length you use as long as it an HO tube and the height is set correctly with a Solarmeter 6.5. A 22 inch all get the job done, and a 46" one will work fine too.

If you can get the tortoise outside for an hour now and then, you won't need indoor UV at all.

Wouldn't the difference between red foot and star be in the duration and intensity of the UV? So maybe more/less hours per day or different UV output bulbs. But the physical layout of the lighting could be the same?

I was trying to figure out what the ideal "coverage" is for such a big enclosure but as I think this through, it does seem that the smallest tube will be sufficient because the zoo med LED UV bulbs are smaller than any of the traditional tube lights and those LEDs are very good. So in hindsight I realize that how much coverage there is probably isn't that important as long as you get the proper UV output somewhere. Plus the added benefit of the smaller tubes is they are cheaper, easier to find and less fragile.

And if that is correct, I wonder when a longer tube would be preferable? Couldn't you always use a shorter UV tube? Why bother with longer ones?

As for going outside, I have a Zoo Med tortoise play pen that I put my baby in for an hour about once a week. But it doesn't really enjoy basking in natural sun, I usually see it hanging out in the shadows thrown by the pen. In fact, this pen has a small enclosed area and I have to block access to that part or the little tort will go in there instead of being in the sun. Is that weird?

 

[Tom]

Wouldn't the difference between red foot and star be in the duration and intensity of the UV? So maybe more/less hours per day or different UV output bulbs. But the physical layout of the lighting could be the same?

Yes and no. First, this is purely a matter of opinion and preference. Being that "forest" type tortoises generally prefer dappled shade and lower lighting levels, I would think that a shorter UV tube would work better in a RF enclosure.

I was trying to figure out what the ideal "coverage" is for such a big enclosure but as I think this through, it does seem that the smallest tube will be sufficient because the zoo med LED UV bulbs are smaller than any of the traditional tube lights and those LEDs are very good. So in hindsight I realize that how much coverage there is probably isn't that important as long as you get the proper UV output somewhere. Plus the added benefit of the smaller tubes is they are cheaper, easier to find and less fragile.

I think "ideal" will vary with who you ask. In my mind, ideal for a baby, would be a short tube. Babies hide almost all the time in the wild and would not be out basking in direct sun for hours at a time. I want babies to have access to some UV, but I don't feel compelled to flood the whole enclosure with UV like I might prefer for an adult that lives in a cold climate and needs to be indoors for several months in a row of every year. In our mild warm climate, I feel indoor UV takes on even less importance if we are able to get them outside at least occasionally.

We are finding an issue with the LED UV bulbs. As I understand it, at least some of them have a very narrow focus of the needed UV and the part of the spectrum that helps them know when to get out of the UV exposure is missing. I have several of the ZooMed LED UV units, and I have not experienced any issues with them, BUT I only run them for a couple of hours mid day over baby stars and other hatchlings, so I might not ever see the problems that someone running them all day long every day might see. @Markw84 is very well studied on this subject and can explain it more technically correctly than I can. I am paraphrasing what I learned from him.

Frankly, the LED UV bulbs have not been in use long enough, or widely enough, for us to know how effective they are, or if there are problems with them. I've used several types over a couple of seasons and seen no issues, but I use them sparingly due to our warm climate here in L.A.

And if that is correct, I wonder when a longer tube would be preferable? Couldn't you always use a shorter UV tube? Why bother with longer ones?

Yes you could, and in theory a shorter tube should get the job done, but a longer tube might be preferred for older tortoises in a larger enclosures. Neither is right or wrong. I wouldn't even say one is "better" than the other. I think it best to consider the pros and cons of each, for each individual housing situation.

As for going outside, I have a Zoo Med tortoise play pen that I put my baby in for an hour about once a week. But it doesn't really enjoy basking in natural sun, I usually see it hanging out in the shadows thrown by the pen. In fact, this pen has a small enclosed area and I have to block access to that part or the little tort will go in there instead of being in the sun. Is that weird?

Not weird at all. Totally normal for babies of all species to seek out cover and remain hidden. This behavior saves them from predation in the wild. Little is known about what babies do in the wild. "The Lost Years..." as it were. If they don't remain hidden in the shadows, they are quickly eaten, one would suppose. This supposition is a primary reason why I might lightened decorate a baby enclosure differently than an enclosure for adults.

One technique I employ for sunning babies is to clip branches from grape vines, mulberry trees, lavatera, hibiscus bushes, or an assortment of available weeds, and drop those in the sunning enclosure. The babies can hide under the foliage and nibble on it too. They are MUCH more active and exploratory when I do this since they feel like they have some cover and shelter. It also allows them to find that dappled sun that they crave to warm up and get their UV, but be under some cover for comfort at the same time. As an added benefit, they can nibble on the greens and get a good meal. I do this for them indoors too, so they are used to it when they get outside.

 

[jaizei]

How many basking bulbs are you using/how large is your basking area?

Longer bulbs are better suited for bigger animals, larger basking areas.

 

[uscpsycho]

I think "ideal" will vary with who you ask. In my mind, ideal for a baby, would be a short tube. Babies hide almost all the time in the wild and would not be out basking in direct sun for hours at a time. I want babies to have access to some UV, but I don't feel compelled to flood the whole enclosure with UV like I might prefer for an adult that lives in a cold climate and needs to be indoors for several months in a row of every year. In our mild warm climate, I feel indoor UV takes on even less importance if we are able to get them outside at least occasionally.

In the future this 70" terrarium may end up housing different animals than it will on day one. I want to set the enclosure up so that by just changing the light source and duration of light, it will suit any animal.

I'm surprised that you would flood the entire enclosure with UV for an adult. My understanding is that a UV gradient should be provided for all reptiles, just as a heat gradient is. And the animal can self regulate how much UV exposure it gets, just like it does with heat. So flooding the enclosure with UV makes it harder to regulate, unless there are lots of shady spots.

We are finding an issue with the LED UV bulbs. As I understand it, at least some of them have a very narrow focus of the needed UV and the part of the spectrum that helps them know when to get out of the UV exposure is missing. I have several of the ZooMed LED UV units, and I have not experienced any issues with them, BUT I only run them for a couple of hours mid day over baby stars and other hatchlings, so I might not ever see the problems that someone running them all day long every day might see. @Markw84 is very well studied on this subject and can explain it more technically correctly than I can. I am paraphrasing what I learned from him.

Frankly, the LED UV bulbs have not been in use long enough, or widely enough, for us to know how effective they are, or if there are problems with them. I've used several types over a couple of seasons and seen no issues, but I use them sparingly due to our warm climate here in L.A.

This is of interest to me because I currently use the Zoo Med LED UV and plan to in the future. I searched the forum for any relevant posts about these bulbs from @Markw84 but couldn't find much. I'd love if someone could post a link to a discussion about this .

This is a tangent, but while searching for Mark's thoughts about LED UV, I did see him say that he doesn't like Chinese CHE. All they do is product heat so I'm not sure what the problem could be if they are used with a thermostat? (I didn't want to bump that very old thread and don't want to start a new thread just to ask this.)

One technique I employ for sunning babies is to clip branches from grape vines, mulberry trees, lavatera, hibiscus bushes, or an assortment of available weeds, and drop those in the sunning enclosure. The babies can hide under the foliage and nibble on it too. They are MUCH more active and exploratory when I do this since they feel like they have some cover and shelter. It also allows them to find that dappled sun that they crave to warm up and get their UV, but be under some cover for comfort at the same time. As an added benefit, they can nibble on the greens and get a good meal. I do this for them indoors too, so they are used to it when they get outside.

I'll give this a try and see if it encourages my tort to get more sun. You mentioned exposing it to natural sun for an hour every now and then could eliminate the need for indoor UV. Is an hour a week sufficient? Every other week? Once a month?

How many basking bulbs are you using/how large is your basking area?

Longer bulbs are better suited for bigger animals, larger basking areas.

There will be one flood lamp for basking on one end, and it will be strong enough to get the temperature up to whatever is necessary for the animal being housed. I've never considered using more than one heat element for a basking area, but maybe it's because I've never had an animal big enough to need more than one. I imagine you wouldn't need multiple basking bulb unless you had a larger snake or something like a monitor.

With such a large enclosure there will be 2-3 CHE for ambient heat. Probably three to make the ambient temperature more uniform throughout.

 

[Tom]

I'm surprised that you would flood the entire enclosure with UV for an adult. My understanding is that a UV gradient should be provided for all reptiles, just as a heat gradient is. And the animal can self regulate how much UV exposure it gets, just like it does with heat. So flooding the enclosure with UV makes it harder to regulate, unless there are lots of shady spots.

You answered your own question. "Unless there are lots of shady spots". There should be lots of shady spots and plants and hides. Also, HO tubes should only be used for a few hours mid day, to simulate what happens outside daily with natural UV.

I'll give this a try and see if it encourages my tort to get more sun. You mentioned exposing it to natural sun for an hour every now and then could eliminate the need for indoor UV. Is an hour a week sufficient? Every other week? Once a month?

Too many variables and not enough scientific study to answer so specifically. Depends on diet, supplementation, how much D3 is already stored in the body, growth rate, activity level, etc... I can tell you from decades of first hand experience that an hour a week is sufficient and will prevent any hint of MBD, which is the point of using any UV in the first place.

There have been many examples over the years of people going much longer between sunning events with no ill effect. One of the moderators here lived in Cadillac MI. Her tortoises (multiple species) lived outside full time in the warmer months, and indoor full time for about 7 months of each year due to the weather there. She used ZERO indoor UV and grew healthy babies to adult hood and reproduced them as well as anyone else. Was diet a factor? Calcium with D3 as a supplement? Probably.

 

[uscpsycho]

You answered your own question. "Unless there are lots of shady spots". There should be lots of shady spots and plants and hides. Also, HO tubes should only be used for a few hours mid day, to simulate what happens outside daily with natural UV.

Speaking of hides, do you have any advice for encouraging my tort to use its hide?

I used to have a hide which it often used but I removed that hide because it outgrew the "door" and can't get in. I have since tried offering two different hides and it never goes into them. Instead it prefers to burrow into two corners, one is in the basking spot and one is in a shady area. Even when I put the tort inside it just walks right out. I can't keep buying new hides in hopes it will finally like one, so should I just not worry about it and let the tort burrow into the corners instead of using a hide?

By burrow, I don't mean it can fully dig itself under the substrate. I just mean it makes a little crater for itself and then sticks its head into the corner.

 

[jaizei]

This is of interest to me because I currently use the Zoo Med LED UV and plan to in the future. I searched the forum for any relevant posts about these bulbs from @Markw84 but couldn't find much. I'd love if someone could post a link to a discussion about this .

This is a tangent, but while searching for Mark's thoughts about LED UV, I did see him say that he doesn't like Chinese CHE. All they do is product heat so I'm not sure what the problem could be if they are used with a thermostat? (I didn't want to bump that very old thread and don't want to start a new thread just to ask this.)

The products made in China that have flooded Amazon in the last few years are generally poor quality. When a major manufacturer makes something in China, theres a level of quality control. Someone buying in bulk on Alibaba and selling on Amazon less so.

Uva bulb holder broke

I’ve attached a photo of the bulb, the fixture and what the inside of the fixture now looks like. Thanks As I said before, there was recently a bad batch of bulbs, and I bet that is the problem. Your reptile shop should replace it free of charge. You can bring the bulb and fixture to them for...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[uscpsycho]

The products made in China that have flooded Amazon in the last few years are generally poor quality. When a major manufacturer makes something in China, theres a level of quality control. Someone buying in bulk on Alibaba and selling on Amazon less so.

I get that there are a lot of crappy products made in China. But I'm not sure what the downside of a "poor quality" CHE is? Will it just die faster? If the problem is that the heat emitted fluctuates, putting it on a thermostat rectifies that (and CHE should ALWAYS be on a thermostat). Almost every CHE I've used has been a cheap no-name Chinese brand and I've never had a problem. I know it only takes one time, but I'm not sure what the problem could be with a CHE.

 

[Tom]

Speaking of hides, do you have any advice for encouraging my tort to use its hide?

I used to have a hide which it often used but I removed that hide because it outgrew the "door" and can't get in. I have since tried offering two different hides and it never goes into them. Instead it prefers to burrow into two corners, one is in the basking spot and one is in a shady area. Even when I put the tort inside it just walks right out. I can't keep buying new hides in hopes it will finally like one, so should I just not worry about it and let the tort burrow into the corners instead of using a hide?

By burrow, I don't mean it can fully dig itself under the substrate. I just mean it makes a little crater for itself and then sticks its head into the corner.

I just use black dishwashing tubs from Walmart. I flip them upside down and cut out a door hole. I enclosure the door hole as the tortoise grows. I keep the substrate under the hide wetter to keep humidity inside the hide box up.

 

[uscpsycho]

Not weird at all. Totally normal for babies of all species to seek out cover and remain hidden. This behavior saves them from predation in the wild. Little is known about what babies do in the wild. "The Lost Years..." as it were. If they don't remain hidden in the shadows, they are quickly eaten, one would suppose. This supposition is a primary reason why I might lightened decorate a baby enclosure differently than an enclosure for adults.

One technique I employ for sunning babies is to clip branches from grape vines, mulberry trees, lavatera, hibiscus bushes, or an assortment of available weeds, and drop those in the sunning enclosure. The babies can hide under the foliage and nibble on it too. They are MUCH more active and exploratory when I do this since they feel like they have some cover and shelter. It also allows them to find that dappled sun that they crave to warm up and get their UV, but be under some cover for comfort at the same time. As an added benefit, they can nibble on the greens and get a good meal. I do this for them indoors too, so they are used to it when they get outside.

One more question about this because I tried this today and at least today it still prefers the shadows thrown by the pen rather than the cover of the leaves. I'm wondering if it is still getting sufficient UV from the sun even though it's not getting the sun directly. To clarify, the shadows are a couple of bands cast by the structure in an otherwise open, sunny area. The circle is where he was hanging out. Is this sufficient to forego indoor UV supplementation?

I just use black dishwashing tubs from Walmart. I flip them upside down and cut out a door hole. I enclosure the door hole as the tortoise grows. I keep the substrate under the hide wetter to keep humidity inside the hide box up.

I have suitable hides but it's ignoring them, was just wondering if there was something I could do to make the hides more enticing. Maybe put moist moss in there or something like that, but I think I've read that is discouraged. I suppose there's no harm if it just prefers not to use a hide.

 

[Tom]

One more question about this because I tried this today and at least today it still prefers the shadows thrown by the pen rather than the cover of the leaves. I'm wondering if it is still getting sufficient UV from the sun even though it's not getting the sun directly. To clarify, the shadows are a couple of bands cast by the structure in an otherwise open, sunny area. The circle is where he was hanging out. Is this sufficient to forego indoor UV supplementation?
View attachment 356992

I have suitable hides but it's ignoring them, was just wondering if there was something I could do to make the hides more enticing. Maybe put moist moss in there or something like that, but I think I've read that is discouraged. I suppose there's no harm if it just prefers not to use a hide.

It is far too barren. You need lots of "stuff" going on in there. Babies avoid open areas and look for cover so they don't get eaten. You need substrate and about 10 times more branches and leaves. Use logs, big rocks, and things for the tortoise to get under. Fill the whole bottom with leaves. Its best to do this on grass. Hang some palm fronds on the outside for more shade and dappling.

Its been very hot here. They can over heat in minutes in full sun like that. There needs to be much more shade available. I like them to have a shallow water bowl that is sunk into the substrate when sunning too. Do you have a temp gun? Hot hot does that surface get in full sun?

Yes on the UV. They just need access to sun. They don't need to sit in full sun for long periods of time, and babies in the wild would almost never be in full sun.

 

[uscpsycho]

It is far too barren. You need lots of "stuff" going on in there. Babies avoid open areas and look for cover so they don't get eaten. You need substrate and about 10 times more branches and leaves. Use logs, big rocks, and things for the tortoise to get under. Fill the whole bottom with leaves. Its best to do this on grass. Hang some palm fronds on the outside for more shade and dappling.

Its been very hot here. They can over heat in minutes in full sun like that. There needs to be much more shade available. I like them to have a shallow water bowl that is sunk into the substrate when sunning too. Do you have a temp gun? Hot hot does that surface get in full sun?

Yes on the UV. They just need access to sun. They don't need to sit in full sun for long periods of time, and babies in the wild would almost never be in full sun.

I can put more branches and leaves in there for cover but I can't have a substrate with this tortoise pen because it is open on the bottom. It doesn't really hold anything in. I haven't measured but I don't think the surface below gets very hot because I put reptile type carpet under the pen, it can get warm but not hot enough to burn. And I don't do this at the hottest time of the day.

I can put a water bowl in there too but I have never ever seen my tortoise drink water. I see it eat plenty and I assume it is getting hydration from the plants it eats but this thing doesn't drink from its bowl. I also bathe it daily.