yet another nervous new owner

[helensky]

just a few questions - i posted my basic plan on the introductions board, but the longer i have him the more questions i have! I'm sure most of this must be normal but I love this little guy so I need to ask

is the gulping normal? its just a noiseless swallowing he does a lot of, I'm sure it is normal but it cant hurt to ask?

also, how much should i expect a 1yo 8cm tort to eat? he does eat the weeds/ leaves he had, I bought them tortoise specific, but he hasn't had much more than a dozen bites since I got him this time yesterday. sometimes he tries for a bite a few times, misses and gives up.

what constitutes a tortoise bath? he has a shallow water dish which i filled with water about body temp and put him in, which he duely climbed out of again. he does like to sit in there sometimes, does this count or is a tort bath something different?

tort also spends a lot of time trying to escape his tort table, as there is a wall partially made of plastic so you can see him from a lower angle. Is he just bored? I've done my research on substrates, food water temp gradients so I don't think anything like that is bothering him, and he has a built in hide and pebbles, does he need more entertainment?

 

[tortoisenerd]

Is the gulping while eating, or just at the air (not while eating)? What exactly are you trying to feed? If you've only had him for a day you can't expect him to eat much until he settles in. If his appetite doesn't pick up within a week I would start to worry. As far as amount of food, there are several rules of thumb such as the amount they can eat in 20 minutes, etc. I find it is easy to just track their weight and Straight Carapace Length (SCL) weekly as they are young to increase or decrease the food as needed. I feed my hatchling as much as he wants within reason as long as he is active and needs the calories. It's hard to describe how much as it really varies. At this point you want to see him eating regularly before you really worry about that. Variety is key.

If he's missing the food, he may just be young and still having "issues", there could be health problems (less likely), or he may just be getting used to how the food is being presented. I would try offering the food in different sizes and shapes and see what is easiest for him. Yes, I too have noticed they will give up. That is why the variety is great too. Sometimes the food will be too tough or thick for them to bite off, or stuck to the bottom of the plate/dish, so they can't get it. The more you observe the easier it becomes. For my tort, it's easier for him to not have the food chopped or torn up so he can use his arms to hold it. This varies tort by tort, as some like it finely chopped. I would feed foods of different textures, sizes, and thicknesses so you can figure out what is easiest for him. Then, you can figure out how to get the variety he needs. When they are little it's tough.

I'd also take him to get a vet checkup to rule out anything, as he's new (many times they will not have any symptoms of parasites or other health problems); also good to have him established as a patient as a vet just in case. Is the water dish in his enclosure, or something you did out of the enclosure?

In my opinion he should have the shallow dish that is easy to get in and out of in his enclosure, and then you should soak every other day for 10-15 minutes outside the enclosure until you are sure he soaks on his own (many do not; the enclosure we have them in are very dehydrating so this is something to be cautious of in captivity). You may need to change out the water to keep it warm. In the enclosure, I place the dish near the heat source but not directly under it to keep the water warm. Yes, the bath is just the soaking for hydration. It is great if you see them drink too.

If he can see out he will want out. You ideally want a non-opaque enclosure walls. Yes, they do also get bored. The larger the enclosure and they more for them to explore the better. If the tort doesn't get stressed by it, it's also good to mix up the cage furnishings and add new ones every so often for enrichment.

The more information and pictures you give us the easier it is to evaluate your setup on the internet. Thanks and best wishes! Congrats on the new addition. What's his name?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I also am new to having a Herman's and I also have noticed that she 'gulps' also, and my other tortoises don't do that. Because she has settled in and likes where she lives I am thinking that the 'gulping' is just natural to Hermanni...I have snuck up on her and watched where she couldn't see me and she still has that gulping action. I think it's just their normal breathing movement, I don't see anything wrong with Queenie...

 

[tortoisenerd]

Other things to think about are placing the food near a hide, near a warm area (they need to be in the 80s to digest food; you may see them bask-eat-bask), and and giving the tort some privacy to eat so it feels safe. Until they get settled in (and even after) they will think you may be a predator. In the wild, hatchlings spend almost all of their time hiding, unless they are eating. The more hide areas in different temperatures in the enclosure the better.

The gulping at the air could be a problem (respiratory) so that is why I ask more questions about it. Please try to elaborate so we can make the most appropriate suggestions. Does he have a runny nose, bubbles out of the nose (other than after drinking water), funny breathing (gurgling, wet, wheezy), etc?

 

[helensky]

Tallis - If you've ever read Atonement by Ian McEwan you'll get the reference, it's the surname of the main family, and I do love that book. I wanted his/her name to be a bit different.

Tallis has access to various weeds and grasses which I replace whenever they're wilting. I bought and planted tort friendly seeds from a tort ebay shop a while ago for the outdoor enclosure and I'm trying to vary the ones leaves I give him. I think it was just a question of what he likes/ different foods as he did some real damage to some of the dandelion leaves I gave him this afternoon! He hasn't been in the outdoor enclosure as for some reason 8cm didnt seem quite so tiny to me when I was planning it! So as the enclosure has so much vegetation I want to temporarily reduce the size before I let him roam, so I don't loose him in there.

The gulping is a fairly constant closed mouth thing where I imagine his throat to be, which he does when he's not eating.

All in all I have pretty much copied all the sensible tortoise table directions I have found re hotspots, temp gradients food and water, he also has a built in hide and a soft substrate. The only exception would be the substrate which came as part of the birthday present as a 'starter kit' with the table. I have no problem with the substrate itself however it didn't come with nearly enough of it, so I've had to emergency order some more. All in all i think he's settling in a bit more now, he's been very active today but also buried himself in substrate to day which I take to be a good sign? His water dish is in the enclosure but I will move it closer to the hotspot, that may be his issue, thanks!


Below is a link of the model of tort table I have, with the same substrate as pictured. My lamps are at right angles to the ones pictured as I thought this was better to the temp gradient. Other than that and temporarily less substrate, it's the same setup

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/viv-tortoise-...4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|293:1|294:30[hr]

Other things to think about are placing the food near a hide, near a warm area (they need to be in the 80s to digest food; you may see them bask-eat-bask), and and giving the tort some privacy to eat so it feels safe. Until they get settled in (and even after) they will think you may be a predator. In the wild, hatchlings spend almost all of their time hiding, unless they are eating. The more hide areas in different temperatures in the enclosure the better.

The gulping at the air could be a problem (respiratory) so that is why I ask more questions about it. Please try to elaborate so we can make the most appropriate suggestions. Does he have a runny nose, bubbles out of the nose (other than after drinking water), funny breathing (gurgling, wet, wheezy), etc?

I will also move the food over to the warmer side, currently it's in the coolest spot as i was worried about wilting? Will tortie care if its a bit wilted? No runny nose, bubbles or anything like that, the gulping doesn't to seem to stop him from being an active little dude either!

 

[Crazy1]

Hi helensky, that's a nice table. my question is the substrate. Please make sure it is not pine, fir or cedar. Those three are bad for torts. Also the pebbles make sure they are large enought that he can not swallow them. I do not have hermanni but I have Greeks and they do the gulping or moving the throat thing too.
I'm looking forward to seeing your new Tallis. Love the name by the way.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I have my food between the cool and warm areas. It can usually go quite a few hours without wilting. Mine will eat the slightly wilted stuff if he's hungry. Some remove any uneaten food immediately, after a few hours, etc. I tend to put some out before work and clean up any after work that is left (sometimes none and sometimes a little). You can experiment to see what gets him appetite going as far as hides, temperature, etc.

If it were my table I would really really want to know what kind of wood. If I didn't know, then I would dump it out and get new stuff. For very little cost it's peace of mind, and you need to change it every few months likely anyways. I find it scary the kit comes with substrate and doesn't even say what type. It's like the reptile wood chips that don't say that either, or say it's a mix. It's very important as sadly they do market toxic woods to torts and reptiles.

If he's constantly focused at that plastic viewing area (digging, trying to get out, climbing), I would put up some paper or piece of wood on the outside of it to block his view. Typically you don't want them to see out at all. Viewing windows are usually placed up higher than that one. Nice table otherwise though. I worry about the substrate depth though. It says only 5.5 inches depth. That means the substrate is very very shallow, and the tort has to be very short (at over 3 inches your tort can probably reach the top!).

The tort should not be able to stand on its hind legs and get anywhere near reaching the edge. Also, they like to dig in the substrate. I think you need to observe the tort behavior and see if this is going to be the best table option for you. I would want substrate as least as deep as the tort is tall, plus the tort not being able to be anywhere near reaching the top. Do you have any cage furnishings the tort could climb on top of and get out? That is something to be careful of as well.

I don't think this table is going to be a good long term option for you once the tort grows at all if what I read is correct as to the height. Please also give us some more details about the type and angle of the bulbs. What type of UVB bulb? What are your temperatures like? Can the tort get in and out of the water easily to completely soak? I have a laser thermometer and it can even take water temperature; I've found it to be very useful. The water when not very near the heat cools down very quickly. Once I got my tort an appropriate dish (took us about 6 to find one he liked) and put it near the heat, he now soaks on his own daily for quite a while when I used to never see him do so. Don't be afraid to experiment with changing things around vs. the kit. I personally think that kits are a bad idea as it's very difficult to have something that is good for every tort and owner as needs vary so much.

Burrowing is natural. As long as them come up daily for food and basking I think it's great. How deep is the substrate now that you added more? How big are the pebbles? I would add another hide near the food area and the warm area (even a pile of timothy hay or a fake plant) to encourage the tort that it's safe to be out and about. Pictures of your exact setup would be helpful.

Sounds great you are working on an outdoor enclosure! Best wishes. Sorry for all the noseyness.

 

[helensky]

emailed seller about substrate and have replaced with potting compost - is it ok that tallis is eating it? I havent got my new order of substrate so am using as a segway, it has nothing artificial in it and tort seems quite happy now hw can burrow properly.

he still will rarely get in his waterbowl however, what constitutes a good one? there are few reptile specific pet shops in my area that i know of so any ideas as to what to look out for when ordering would be appreciated.

 

[tortoisenerd]

If it is organic potting compost/soil, it is ok that he eats a little. Substrates should be chosen such that they are safely digestible. If he finds it particularly tasty and it turns out to be more than a few nibbles (rare), I would take it out as that's not a great idea. What were you planning to use for substrate more permanently?

A good waterbowl is something the tort can easily and safely get in and out of. Most torts need a ramp, stairs, or something like some rocks. It's tricky for little torts. My little guy likes the "Groovy Jacuzzi" bowl with steps. The ramp ones, paint tray, potting saucer, etc, all didn't work for us.

 

[Millerlite]

I don't know where i read it, I think Vic morgan actually told me, but he said when the tortoise are gulping they are relaxed and the gulping is just them breathing and relaxing. My tortoise all do it when they are just sitting there soaking in the rays. I wouldn't be to worried about it, If you see bubbles or signs of lost breath then you should worry.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I heard that if the gulping is with the mouth open it could be a bad sign (but not necessarily), but if it's with the mouth closed and more like swallowing it is natural. My tort does the latter a lot. Great info!

 

[helensky]

Tallis is looking good, s/he seems to like the indoor setuP she has now though still seems pretty nervous outside. I volunteer at a local primary school and tortie came along and was completely fussed over. Still a bit worried that s/he doesn't eat that much without pursuasion, but s/he still stomps around quite merrily. DT does sleep around 16 hrs a day though, is this usual for a 1yo?

 

[tortoisenerd]

It can take a tort quite a while to feel settled in, especially longer with a bigger change. My tort has been put outside probably a dozen times (we have cold/wet weather) and still is a scared tort! Yes I think that is typical for sleep. I would not worry as long as the tort gets up daily to eat, walk around, drink water, bask, etc. Is that quote including daytime naps too? My tort usually sleeps at least that long each day plus naps! It varies though. I know it's typical for him. Over time you will get that feeling too. I always suggest people take a new tort to the vet for a checkup, fyi. It's great to get a second opinion especially when you are starting out. My vet was able to point out some things to me that were very important to my tort's well being that had not been noticed by me. I think having a vet on hand for emergencies is priceless (they will get the tort in quicker as an established vs. new patient).

 

[littlefeat]

I wonder if the gulping is a means to self heat regulation just as crocodiles do when basking (or jaws open)? Ours does it and is a healthy tort! Actually humans are the only I can think of that sweat rather than stand around with our mouths open unless a pretty gal walks by!

 

[johnhutch2000]

DT does sleep around 16 hrs a day though, is this usual for a 1yo?

I'm new to keeping my hermanns aswell and he seems to have similar patterns to yours. He sleeps alot, then goes for a speedy wander for an hour or so then goes back to sleep. Also like you say he doesn't seem to eat alot without alot of persuasion mine is also a 1yo. Anyone know if this behaviour is normal?

A further thing is that mine doesn't sleep in any of his three hides. He goes in them sometimes but always goes to sleep against the wall near but not close to the corner where the heat lamp is, even if its off. It isn't cold in my room so I don't know why he does that. Any Ideas?

 

[helensky]

mine do that too sometimes. i think its just because they feel safe enough where they are.