Wow, what a fun thread!
As usual, I'm late to the party. Not that I think I was missed, lol, but I'd still like to comment even if everyone has moved on with life and I'm left all alone.
It seems to me that we are comparing apples to oranges here, sort of. Let's say the picture in post 1 are F2 specimens and the hatchlings in the other pictures are all F1's from Randy's stock (I hope I have the terminology correct here). The fact that they're F2 adds a whole new dynamic to the characteristics we're seeing. I agree that single or no dot vertebral scutes are not common in Randy's F1 hatchlings, though I have seen a few. But, we've never before seen hatchlings that these two specific adults have produced, so I would completely expect to see some variations between these and the F1's.
If we're going to argue that these are or aren't "pure South African leopards" based on the number of dots on their vertebral scutes, I think we need more F2 data in order to make a better comparison.
Am I thinking about this wrong? I'm an accountant, not a biologist, so someone please tell me if I have completely missed the mark.
Even if we can compare two separate groups of F2 specimens, as some have pointed out, there really is little or no scientific accuracy in associating certain characteristics with specific localities. There is WAY too much diversity in leopard tortoises in their home range, let alone what we have to deal with here in the USA. A good guess as to what sort of genetic make up a group of leopard tortoises has just by looking at them, is still just a guess. The pictures in the link Will provided is a good example of just how diverse leopards are even among specimens found in the same locality.
For what it's worth, I think that the hatchlings in the first post are "pure South African leopards", as we commonly refer to them as. Although some in the first picture appear to have one dot, the dots are not as uniform as I would expect to see on a "normal leopard". Even some of the single dots on the scutes almost appear to be two smooshed together. I saw that on a few from the groups I had. A head shot of the hatchlings would muddy this whole conversation up even more.
As usual, I'm late to the party. Not that I think I was missed, lol, but I'd still like to comment even if everyone has moved on with life and I'm left all alone.
It seems to me that we are comparing apples to oranges here, sort of. Let's say the picture in post 1 are F2 specimens and the hatchlings in the other pictures are all F1's from Randy's stock (I hope I have the terminology correct here). The fact that they're F2 adds a whole new dynamic to the characteristics we're seeing. I agree that single or no dot vertebral scutes are not common in Randy's F1 hatchlings, though I have seen a few. But, we've never before seen hatchlings that these two specific adults have produced, so I would completely expect to see some variations between these and the F1's.
If we're going to argue that these are or aren't "pure South African leopards" based on the number of dots on their vertebral scutes, I think we need more F2 data in order to make a better comparison.
Am I thinking about this wrong? I'm an accountant, not a biologist, so someone please tell me if I have completely missed the mark.
Even if we can compare two separate groups of F2 specimens, as some have pointed out, there really is little or no scientific accuracy in associating certain characteristics with specific localities. There is WAY too much diversity in leopard tortoises in their home range, let alone what we have to deal with here in the USA. A good guess as to what sort of genetic make up a group of leopard tortoises has just by looking at them, is still just a guess. The pictures in the link Will provided is a good example of just how diverse leopards are even among specimens found in the same locality.
For what it's worth, I think that the hatchlings in the first post are "pure South African leopards", as we commonly refer to them as. Although some in the first picture appear to have one dot, the dots are not as uniform as I would expect to see on a "normal leopard". Even some of the single dots on the scutes almost appear to be two smooshed together. I saw that on a few from the groups I had. A head shot of the hatchlings would muddy this whole conversation up even more.