It's this topic again but I'm out of ideas - soft undershell on 1ish year old Sulcata

Balthy

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Hello,

I have about a one year old sulcata. He has a flexible undershell, seems a bit lethargic, and spends a lot of time in his burrow. I've had him since he was maybe 3 months old. This has been going on for about 2-3 months that we know of. I've read a lot of other threads. I've read about MBD and HFS. I'm scared.

I read and read and tweak and tweak, but I can't figure out what the lapse is.

Lets talk origin: Sydney came from a breeder in St Petes florida. Someone bought him, then realized what they are and where they live (indiana) they couldn't do it. I'm in NC, I've always loved tortoises, and I read what I was getting into and decided I would take him. So kinda a rescue/not really a rescue situation.
The reason I mention this is the breeder had them in beefjerky land (glass terrarium, sand, no water) and gave the person who bought it something they said looked like dog food to feed him... I'm not sure it it actually was, but this person seemed convinced. Maybe it was just pellet food, but either way I don't think this was a good start based on what I heard.

He has coconut coir bedding in one of those long underbed tupperwares. I keep it wet.
He has a plastic large hide that he's dug a trench to sit in under. This hide gets moisture from the bedding, and seems to stay 80ish percent. The outside seems to be about 60%.

His bulb right now is the Powersun 160watt. Before that he had the exoterra 150watt, but he seemed to like the powersun more when I installed it. I felt like the exoterra put off more heat to the surface, but the powersun is much less red in wavelength.

Temps used to be 95-75 with the old bulb. now they're more like 85-80 with the new bulb. I'm not sure why the back got hotter, but maybe the light is putting off more heat into the air and less to the surface? Not sure. I've tried moving the light higher and lower, wondering if it was too close or too far, but his burrow camping doesn't change much. He does sunbathe in the mornings, but by midday he's burrowed again.

He has a vornado humidifier in his room that runs constantly on infinity. Pretty sure that's only good for keeping the room at 60%., can't seem to make it do anymore without using hot water, but that's a short term blast.
He has a small space heater in the room for nighttime to keep the room 70-75, and a small heat mat underneath his hide, that keeps the ground temp about the same.
He constantly has orchard hay in his enclosure, before that we had timothy hay in there. I never see him do anything with it but sit on it. He used to nibble the timothy when he was much younger, though.

He has a bowl of water, but I've not seen him use it more than once or twice (I haven't seen it, but my wife says she found poops in there once or twice a while ago).

I feed him mainly dandelion leaves and clover leaves from the yard coated in calcium/D3 powder. We don't treat out property with anything. He doesn't seem to want to eat any kind of grass I give him. He doesn't want to eat the herbal salad mix we bought, wet or dry. Sometimes he gets a little fig leaf or rose leaf. We've given him cactus in the past also.

I soak him almost every day for 20 min, sometimes much longer with water changes. He almost always drinks.

I took him to the NCSU exotic vet and they gave me liquid calcium about two months ago, and told me it sounds like I'm doing stuff right. I'm currently waiting to take him to a follow up, but I just don't see what I can change or try that I haven't.
I wasn't able to get the liquid directly into his mouth with even two people, he can yank his head out of your fingers even when you think you've got him. So, I put it on all his food instead, much like I'm doing now with the calcium/D3 powder.

His appetite was low for a good while, he'd only eat every other day, but the last two weeks he's been smashing it.
He hides in his hole most of the day and night except when I yank him out to bathe and eat.


Can you guys give me any idea of what to do to change what I'm doing? I'm sure there a bunch more information I can give if you have questions, or things I've tried that I can't think of right now, of if I can clarify something about his current setup. I'm feeling quite sick about it, and I'm struggling to remember everything right now.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I went in to take pictures and the b*st*rd is sunbathing after he ate to prove me wrong. Haha.

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Blackdog1714

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Maro2Bear

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Greetings...

Thats a lot of info, but a quick read through shows you have overnight temps of 70-75. Minimum ambient should be 80F. I’m guessing your low overnight temps have really exacerbated any and all problems. Also, Timothy hay not a good substrste, and no lid on your enclosure.

Read this again, especially on the important temperatures, and substrate and lidded enclosure - https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

Heating and Lighting:

use a 65 watt incandescent flood bulb on a 12 hour timer and adjust the height of the fixture to get a hot spot of around 100 directly under the bulb. Then use a ceramic heating element set to 80 degrees on a reptile thermostat to maintain ambient temperature in the enclosure. Sometimes the basking lamp raises the day time ambient into the low 90s. "Ambient should be no lower than 80, but drifting up to 90 during the heat of the day is good…" This is fine and the thermostat will keep your CHE off during these times, but ready to click on after the basking lamp clicks off and the ambient temperature starts to drop at night. I use long florescent tubes when I want to brighten up the whole enclosure and I run these on the same timer as the basking bulb. The above are just what works for me and are suggestions for what might wor



Good luck... check your temps!
 

Balthy

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Thank you. I definitely think the enclosure is a problem too. But I'm kinda mentally divided because I've seen so much conflicting info in my research online. haha. Please don't take my questioning here as defensive or aggressive. I accept I am not an expert and I'm the one asking for help, but I'm trying to highlight where I get confused and the questions I have after all my research before now.

The timothy hay is not his substrate, he's just spread out what was in a pile by sitting on it and walking about. The substrate is entirely coco coir.

I read that the glass ends up baking them, even though you can get humidity right, and that it's a mistake newbs make, so I went with the sweater box route for that reason.
The temps have been concerning me with the new light, absolutely, but when I google savannah temps I get this: "The savanna climate has a temperature range of 68° to 86° F" Which sounds way colder than the 95-100 max that I read about. I've also read it should be 70 at night, so I get conflict there again.
Maybe the light does need to be lower. I raised it because I thought maybe he was hiding because he's getting overexposed at 12in.

What do you think is wrong with the substrate?
The link says "I recommend coco coir, orchid bark, cypress mulch, plain additive free soil, or yard dirt if yours is suitable"
I'm using the first one on that list. Also in this forum is this one: https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/starter-kit.173140/which lists coco coir and plastic tote, so I'm seeing conflicting info even here. My brain hurts. haha.

For size, I'm wanting to build a bigger enclosure for indoors for when he gets bigger, but I thought that was enough at this size and the vet said it's big. I can't imagine a glass terrarium that's bigger on the market, but I'm not well versed in that.

Thank you again.

EDIT: temperature ranges are across the enclosure during the day, not fluxuation of max on one size.
 

Balthy

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Sorry for double post, I can't seem to edit that post again due to spam restrictions.
Thanks for the advice. I lowered his light, and it's now 94 underneath it, 80 at the back of the enclosure, and 85 in the hide.
 

Cathie G

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Thank you. I definitely think the enclosure is a problem too. But I'm kinda mentally divided because I've seen so much conflicting info in my research online. haha. Please don't take my questioning here as defensive or aggressive. I accept I am not an expert and I'm the one asking for help, but I'm trying to highlight where I get confused and the questions I have after all my research before now.

The timothy hay is not his substrate, he's just spread out what was in a pile by sitting on it and walking about. The substrate is entirely coco coir.

I read that the glass ends up baking them, even though you can get humidity right, and that it's a mistake newbs make, so I went with the sweater box route for that reason.
The temps have been concerning me with the new light, absolutely, but when I google savannah temps I get this: "The savanna climate has a temperature range of 68° to 86° F" Which sounds way colder than the 95-100 max that I read about. I've also read it should be 70 at night, so I get conflict there again.
Maybe the light does need to be lower. I raised it because I thought maybe he was hiding because he's getting overexposed at 12in.

What do you think is wrong with the substrate?
The link says "I recommend coco coir, orchid bark, cypress mulch, plain additive free soil, or yard dirt if yours is suitable"
I'm using the first one on that list. Also in this forum is this one: https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/starter-kit.173140/which lists coco coir and plastic tote, so I'm seeing conflicting info even here. My brain hurts. haha.

For size, I'm wanting to build a bigger enclosure for indoors for when he gets bigger, but I thought that was enough at this size and the vet said it's big. I can't imagine a glass terrarium that's bigger on the market, but I'm not well versed in that.

Thank you again.

EDIT: temperature ranges are across the enclosure during the day, not fluxuation of max on one size.
I guarantee you...no one here thinks of you as aggressive. (Only for your tortoise) I went through all of the conflicting info too. I only have a little Russian so I can't give you advice on sulcotas but I can say...hang in there. I'm really glad I found this site even though I'd had my tortoise for several years. They've really helped me improve my little guy's life. So stick it out on this site. I'm sure more knowledgeable people will get in contact with you soon.
 

Blackdog1714

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What I have learned on TFO is that for adults you are dead on for the temperature and humidity range. The babies and young ones stay hidden and underground thus warmer and more humid. Also when you add what they may tell you at the Pet Store you are dead on for conflicting information. :cool:
 

Balthy

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I guarantee you...no one here thinks of you as aggressive. (Only for your tortoise) I went through all of the conflicting info too. I only have a little Russian so I can't give you advice on sulcotas but I can say...hang in there. I'm really glad I found this site even though I'd had my tortoise for several years. They've really helped me improve my little guy's life. So stick it out on this site. I'm sure more knowledgeable people will get in contact with you soon.

I jsut didn't want to seem like I was saying "Please help me! But not like that."
I want to get it straight in my mind on the whys when there's so much conflicting info.
Glad to know it's not just me. :) I'm totally open to change things up as much as needed.

What I have learned on TFO is that for adults you are dead on for the temperature and humidity range. The babies and young ones stay hidden and underground thus warmer and more humid. Also when you add what they may tell you at the Pet Store you are dead on for conflicting information. :cool:

I haven't consulted pets stores for good reasons. haha.
I think that's what makes it so frustrating, I felt like I'd gathered so much info and read both sides of advice and it's still not working out.
I get that it's got to be humidity and warmth. So I've lowered his light and increased his heater to get it better today, based on the feedback here. (The whole en suite is his. it's a tiny room and he's in the shower, so it's easy to climate control the whole room except for humidity at 80%, but he gets 60% and 80% in the hide).

I'm going to start bathing twice a day for 20 minutes instead on once until I get more advice on the rest of the details here. I don't want to just jump out and change the whole setup to find out it was a bad move for a new reason that the old setup didn't have and it could have just been tweaked. Either way, the little guy has a blank check with me. I'll do whatever it takes. I just want to understand the changes I need to make before I go out and start ripping everything down to bare bones.
 

Blackdog1714

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Lucky tort to have a whole bathroom! The right steps when they are young pay big dividends later! Wish you the best!
 

Cathie G

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I jsut didn't want to seem like I was saying "Please help me! But not like that."
I want to get it straight in my mind on the whys when there's so much conflicting info.
Glad to know it's not just me. :) I'm totally open to change things up as much as needed.



I haven't consulted pets stores for good reasons. haha.
I think that's what makes it so frustrating, I felt like I'd gathered so much info and read both sides of advice and it's still not working out.
I get that it's got to be humidity and warmth. So I've lowered his light and increased his heater to get it better today, based on the feedback here. (The whole en suite is his. it's a tiny room and he's in the shower, so it's easy to climate control the whole room except for humidity at 80%, but he gets 60% and 80% in the hide).

I'm going to start bathing twice a day for 20 minutes instead on once until I get more advice on the rest of the details here. I don't want to just jump out and change the whole setup to find out it was a bad move for a new reason that the old setup didn't have and it could have just been tweaked. Either way, the little guy has a blank check with me. I'll do whatever it takes. I just want to understand the changes I need to make before I go out and start ripping everything down to bare bones.
Yes don't run out and buy a bunch of new stuff. You'll just stress out your adorable little tortoise anyway. Just hang in there. Sometimes lately this site gets really busy for good reasons.
 

Yvonne G

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Get rid of the hay - babies don't eat hay. You can try it again when he gets to be about 3 or 4 years old.

Get rid of that dissecting light. I like to use a tube type fluorescent UVB light along with a radiant heat panel. But the light/heat arrangement maro2bear suggested is very good too.

Try to figure out a way to cover the enclosure to make it more humid inside. They hatch during the monsoon season and heavy humidity and warmth help the shell to grow smoothly.

The under-the-bed tub is an ok size for now, however, the sides are pretty short and in no time at all he's going to be able to climb out of it.

Move the hiding place over into a corner and up against the wall. This gives you more floor space.

Just a simple note of explanation: Most other sites haven't learned yet of the importance for warmth and humidity for young sulcata tortoises. Your best bet is to listen to the info here on this Forum.
 

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