Proper Intramuscular Injection Site and Procedure

@Tim Carlisle ......... Here it is as you requested. This is our first injection patient since we discussed proper procedure for IM injections, this is for Tortoises AND Turtles.


Yes there are vets that give injections in other locations BUT they are far more risky and not the best location. I should say ......... Did Joe Montana ever throw a bad pass? Did Michael Jordan ever mis a shot? Of course, so saying my vet has been doing it this way for 40 years doesn't mean they are right it just means that even the best can make mistakes.

EppsDynasty said:

@Tim Carlisle ......... Here it is as you requested. This is our first injection patient since we discussed proper procedure for IM injections, this is for Tortoises AND Turtles.

Yes there are vets that give injections in other locations BUT they are far more risky and not the best location. I should say ......... Did Joe Montana ever throw a bad pass? Did Michael Jordan ever mis a shot? Of course, so saying my vet has been doing it this way for 40 years doesn't mean they are right it just means that even the best can make mistakes.

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Thank you Dana and Amanda!!

That tort had surgery for the infection, I guess, was that a drain tube below his neck?

What?!? Please explain to me how that location is Intramuscular. What muscle is located there? That location would be used for SC/SQ/ICo injections. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a vet giving injections in the front limbs. Please explain how it is dangerous and what the risks are?

Dustin said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a vet giving injections in the front limbs. Please explain how it is dangerous and what the risks are?

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YOU ARE 100% wrong ......Giving injections in the limbs is VERY painful. There are far more nerves in the limbs than anywhere else on the tort, not to mention the logistics of wiggling it in-between the spurs. We have seen numerous torts with broken needles in their legs from idiots injecting there .... is this NOT a risk? Come on your smarter than that. We even had a fill in vet tech attempt to give our Wilson (broken front leg, 200 lb Sulcata) a pain shot in the front leg. I snapped at her and said "that's not where you do this." She responded "This is where 'WE' give shots" "Not in any of our torts you don't" then she was reprimanded by the doc "What are you doing?" She then was very sternly told to NEVER do that again in his office.
The front legs have a ton of nerves for them to be able and feel during a defensive posture, these cannot be avoided when injecting. You ask 'What muscle' ..... there is nothing but muscle there. It does have lose skin for range of motion BUT that shoulder is very powerful, what does that power come from? MUSCLE.

Most vets just practice all day everyday not educate themselves constantly and evolve. There is a clear difference between vets that constantly educate themselves, attend lectures, take part in procedures outside their comfort zone, have a constant yearning to expand their learning. Spend $40,000 in 100 days on any trade painter, mechanic, carpenter, plumber or veterinarian and you start to be at a different level than your run of the mill lawn mower or handyman. When you deal with the people that keep animals worth millions safe and healthy and cost isn't a family struggle it is just part of doing business the mentality of said vet is completely different. Our vet team does everyday what most vets will never be exposed to any day of their career, this creates a different type of vet, this creates a far more intelligent and educated medical professional that most vets just will never get the exposure to achieve.

One more thing .......
Our vets do not make their living dealing with sick cats and dogs daily they deal with the animals no one else will see ..... (because they don't have the education). Our vet team specializes in tortoises and learn more and more everyday they do not see 1 tort for every 5-600 cats or dogs ..... just a very different doctor of medicine.

EppsDynasty said:

YOU ARE 100% wrong ......Giving injections in the limbs is VERY painful. There are far more nerves in the limbs than anywhere else on the tort, not to mention the logistics of wiggling it in-between the spurs. We have seen numerous torts with broken needles in their legs from idiots injecting there .... is this NOT a risk? Come on your smarter than that. We even had a fill in vet tech attempt to give our Wilson (broken front leg, 200 lb Sulcata) a pain shot in the front leg. I snapped at her and said "that's not where you do this." She responded "This is where 'WE' give shots" "Not in any of our torts you don't" then she was reprimanded by the doc "What are you doing?" She then was very sternly told to NEVER do that again in his office.
The front legs have a ton of nerves for them to be able and feel during a defensive posture, these cannot be avoided when injecting. You ask 'What muscle' ..... there is nothing but muscle there. It does have lose skin for range of motion BUT that shoulder is very powerful, what does that power come from? MUSCLE.

Most vets just practice all day everyday not educate themselves constantly and evolve. There is a clear difference between vets that constantly educate themselves, attend lectures, take part in procedures outside their comfort zone, have a constant yearning to expand their learning. Spend $40,000 in 100 days on any trade painter, mechanic, carpenter, plumber or veterinarian and you start to be at a different level than your run of the mill lawn mower or handyman. When you deal with the people that keep animals worth millions safe and healthy and cost isn't a family struggle it is just part of doing business the mentality of said vet is completely different. Our vet team does everyday what most vets will never be exposed to any day of their career, this creates a different type of vet, this creates a far more intelligent and educated medical professional that most vets just will never get the exposure to achieve.

One more thing .......
Our vets do not make their living dealing with sick cats and dogs daily they deal with the animals no one else will see ..... (because they don't have the education). Our vet team specializes in tortoises and learn more and more everyday they do not see 1 tort for every 5-600 cats or dogs ..... just a very different doctor of medicine.

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Just like my Birds (Parrots) they go to a specialist that ONLY deals with Avian creatures, They are the only vet for miles that has their own MRI machine. They even do work/care for the zoo's in the area . . .and they are a Teaching hospital, with cameras in the surgery room . . .now that's what we need for our torts. Sounds like you have some fine Dr's to assist you with your torts! Thank you for the explanation...

EppsDynasty said:

YOU ARE 100% wrong ......Giving injections in the limbs is VERY painful. There are far more nerves in the limbs than anywhere else on the tort, not to mention the logistics of wiggling it in-between the spurs. We have seen numerous torts with broken needles in their legs from idiots injecting there .... is this NOT a risk? Come on your smarter than that. We even had a fill in vet tech attempt to give our Wilson (broken front leg, 200 lb Sulcata) a pain shot in the front leg. I snapped at her and said "that's not where you do this." She responded "This is where 'WE' give shots" "Not in any of our torts you don't" then she was reprimanded by the doc "What are you doing?" She then was very sternly told to NEVER do that again in his office.
The front legs have a ton of nerves for them to be able and feel during a defensive posture, these cannot be avoided when injecting. You ask 'What muscle' ..... there is nothing but muscle there. It does have lose skin for range of motion BUT that shoulder is very powerful, what does that power come from? MUSCLE.

Most vets just practice all day everyday not educate themselves constantly and evolve. There is a clear difference between vets that constantly educate themselves, attend lectures, take part in procedures outside their comfort zone, have a constant yearning to expand their learning. Spend $40,000 in 100 days on any trade painter, mechanic, carpenter, plumber or veterinarian and you start to be at a different level than your run of the mill lawn mower or handyman. When you deal with the people that keep animals worth millions safe and healthy and cost isn't a family struggle it is just part of doing business the mentality of said vet is completely different. Our vet team does everyday what most vets will never be exposed to any day of their career, this creates a different type of vet, this creates a far more intelligent and educated medical professional that most vets just will never get the exposure to achieve.

One more thing .......
Our vets do not make their living dealing with sick cats and dogs daily they deal with the animals no one else will see ..... (because they don't have the education). Our vet team specializes in tortoises and learn more and more everyday they do not see 1 tort for every 5-600 cats or dogs ..... just a very different doctor of medicine.

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Dana; You have become a liabililty to this forum. You have evolved into believing you are now the only person that knows how to properly do anything. And your demeanor is abusive and insulting in telling us about that constantly. I have avoided responding to threads you have taken over but cannot any more.

Just in the last few weeks:

You shut me down when I advised antibiotics for the dark green urine issue. Despite every case of that I have seen and heard about had never had a good outcome without antibiotics started immediately to treat the intestinal infection that is always present with that symptom. Until the infection is treated, the gut never starts working properly and recovery does not begin - no matter how weak. If it has a chance of recovery - getting the infection from destroying the gut is the only way to start that.

In the thread about heating large tortoises where I posted about my approach with my Galapagos group, you post a video and state "If you are not doing it this way you are wrong".

Now with @Dustin you tell him "YOU ARE 100% wrong" !!!! This guy know more about treating tortoises than you ever will. He works directly with the University of Florida and Dr OZ. Ask Atilla if he knows Dr OZ and the University of Florida and their work with tortoises. The back of the front legs and upper part of the front legs is the preferred IM injections site. Muscle just above the gulars to the side of the neck?? Front legs loaded with nerves??? Where are you getting your tortoise anatomy info??

Dana, unfortunately you have become a big detractor to the value of this forum.

MenagerieGrl said:

Just like my Birds (Parrots) they go to a specialist that ONLY deals with Avian creatures, They are the only vet for miles that has their own MRI machine. They even do work/care for the zoo's in the area . . .and they are a Teaching hospital, with cameras in the surgery room . . .now that's what we need for our torts. Sounds like you have some fine Dr's to assist you with your torts! Thank you for the explanation...

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Was going to say this- one of the easier ways to kill a bird is to take it to a vet. Even among avian vets, depending on when and where they were educated or practice, there is misinformation. All over the internet, vets say that lovebirds shouldn't have seed mix because it's bad for their liver. My vet goes to avian conferences and said that while it's true for many parrots, my bird shouldn't be having as little seed as I was told. In the wild, it's a major part of their diet. I am new to tortoises (I don't adopt, I just accept what's distributed to me from the ether haha) and imagine it's the same. People do it the way it's been done and don't know to adapt to the latest research and practice. If the vet hasn't kept birds, she won't see my bird, and I assume that should go for tortoises too.

Dana uses two of the more tortoise knowledgeable vets in California. I'm assuming he has gotten his info from the actual vet, not one of the assistants.

I've never had a comfortable shot on any part of my body, so there's bound to be some discomfort

I’m going to keep this focused on tortoise care and the claims you made—not personal attacks.

Calling me a “liability,” “abusive,” and saying I “take over threads” is not constructive. If you disagree with something I post, quote the point and address the content. I will do the same.


1) Antibiotics
I did not say “never use antibiotics.” My point was (and remains): in a debilitated tortoise, blanket certainty and “always antibiotics now” is not responsible advice online without diagnostics and context.

Antibiotics can be necessary and life-saving when indicated. They can also have real downsides in compromised animals (appetite suppression, GI disruption/dysbiosis, dehydration risk, stress response, etc.). We’ve seen fragile, end-stage animals decline after antibiotics were started—whether from disease severity, handling stress, or medication effects. The point is simple: unstable tortoises have limited margin for error, and every intervention has tradeoffs that should be guided by a vet with the full clinical picture.

My position is simple: use antibiotics when indicated, under veterinary guidance, and paired with stabilization (correct temps, hydration/fluids plan, and supportive care as appropriate). That is not “shutting you down.” That is caution based on real cases.


2) Heating large tortoises
If my wording ever came across as “my way or you’re wrong,” that’s not my intent. I share methods that work for us in a high-volume rescue setting. There are multiple ways to achieve correct outcomes (stable temps, dry housing, safe heat sources, etc.). But strong disagreement with unsafe or ineffective setups is not the same thing as “thinking I’m the only one who knows anything.”


3) Injection sites / the video you’re referencing
You wrote “Dustin knows more than you ever will.” That’s not an argument—it’s an attempt to disqualify someone from participating. Nobody gets to own a public forum by asserting rank.

We work with a large population of giant tortoises on a routine basis, and size absolutely changes what is safest and most repeatable. Our goal is not to “win” an argument—it’s to keep improving protocols that reduce stress, reduce handling risk, and improve outcomes for these animals.

With that context, here is the actual medical point: the injection shown was performed the way we were trained by our board certified veterinarian for very large tortoises—targeting the cranial pectoral/shoulder muscle mass (pectorals) via a front-of-shoulder access point. This is muscle. It is not a “neck skin” SQ shot. Other veterinarians use forelimb/pectoral sites as well. The important points are anatomy, proper restraint, correct needle choice, angle/depth, and minimizing movement. With giants, handling logistics matter, and technique decisions often change compared to small species.

Where I will agree with you on one thing: I should have avoided writing “100% wrong.” The better, accurate statement is: for the large tortoises we handle, we do not use limb injections as our default, and here is why and what we do instead. That is a discussion about protocol—not a contest over who is “allowed” to speak.


Additional anatomy clarification
On “what muscle is located there?” There is major pectoral/cranial shoulder muscle mass there. In tortoises, the pectoral muscles attach internally in relation to the plastron, creating a large muscle bed under/just behind the front limbs. That is why pectoral/forelimb musculature is a common IM site, and why the approach shown targets the pectoral/shoulder muscle mass.


Additional clinical reference
A veterinary clinic video demonstrates the same pectoral IM site and technique: “Medicating Turtles and Tortoises – Intramuscular Injections” (Avian and Exotic Animal Clinic of Arizona). In the video, the clinician describes the two large pectoral muscle beds under the front of the shell on either side of the head and demonstrates injecting into that pectoral muscle mass. They also add an important nuance: in very large tortoises, the arm may sometimes be necessary due to size and handling logistics.

In our setting, we handle giants routinely, and that repetition matters. A lot of clinics rarely work with very large, powerful tortoises, so they understandably default to whichever site is easiest to access safely with their staff and restraint options. Our goal in sharing this is to help keepers and clinicians think more deliberately about technique in giants, and to show that—with proper restraint, angle, and muscle targeting—the pectoral approach can be repeatable even in very large animals.


Video link:
Merck Vet Manual (reptile clinical procedures):
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exotic-and-laboratory-animals/reptiles/clinical-procedures-for-reptiles


Now, the larger issue
A real liability to this forum is not “someone disagreeing with you.” A real liability is gatekeeping—where disagreement becomes disqualification, and where people try to shut others down by asserting rank instead of correcting information with facts and sources. That mentality discourages newer keepers from asking questions, pushes discussion into private channels, and ultimately puts real tortoises and turtles at risk.

If something I wrote is wrong, quote it and correct it with specifics and sources. If it’s correct, then the focus should be on the animals—not on whether my delivery was flattering.

I’ve addressed each claim. If you want to continue, keep it specific, sourced, and clinical. Right now this looks less like a clinical disagreement and more like an effort to discredit me personally. I’ve provided anatomy, technique, and references. If you have a factual correction, make it with sources. Otherwise, I’m not responding to further personal commentary.

EppsDynasty said:

I’m going to keep this focused on tortoise care and the claims you made—not personal attacks.

Calling me a “liability,” “abusive,” and saying I “take over threads” is not constructive. If you disagree with something I post, quote the point and address the content. I will do the same.


1) Antibiotics
I did not say “never use antibiotics.” My point was (and remains): in a debilitated tortoise, blanket certainty and “always antibiotics now” is not responsible advice online without diagnostics and context.

Antibiotics can be necessary and life-saving when indicated. They can also have real downsides in compromised animals (appetite suppression, GI disruption/dysbiosis, dehydration risk, stress response, etc.). We’ve seen fragile, end-stage animals decline after antibiotics were started—whether from disease severity, handling stress, or medication effects. The point is simple: unstable tortoises have limited margin for error, and every intervention has tradeoffs that should be guided by a vet with the full clinical picture.

My position is simple: use antibiotics when indicated, under veterinary guidance, and paired with stabilization (correct temps, hydration/fluids plan, and supportive care as appropriate). That is not “shutting you down.” That is caution based on real cases.


2) Heating large tortoises
If my wording ever came across as “my way or you’re wrong,” that’s not my intent. I share methods that work for us in a high-volume rescue setting. There are multiple ways to achieve correct outcomes (stable temps, dry housing, safe heat sources, etc.). But strong disagreement with unsafe or ineffective setups is not the same thing as “thinking I’m the only one who knows anything.”


3) Injection sites / the video you’re referencing
You wrote “Dustin knows more than you ever will.” That’s not an argument—it’s an attempt to disqualify someone from participating. Nobody gets to own a public forum by asserting rank.

We work with a large population of giant tortoises on a routine basis, and size absolutely changes what is safest and most repeatable. Our goal is not to “win” an argument—it’s to keep improving protocols that reduce stress, reduce handling risk, and improve outcomes for these animals.

With that context, here is the actual medical point: the injection shown was performed the way we were trained by our board certified veterinarian for very large tortoises—targeting the cranial pectoral/shoulder muscle mass (pectorals) via a front-of-shoulder access point. This is muscle. It is not a “neck skin” SQ shot. Other veterinarians use forelimb/pectoral sites as well. The important points are anatomy, proper restraint, correct needle choice, angle/depth, and minimizing movement. With giants, handling logistics matter, and technique decisions often change compared to small species.

Where I will agree with you on one thing: I should have avoided writing “100% wrong.” The better, accurate statement is: for the large tortoises we handle, we do not use limb injections as our default, and here is why and what we do instead. That is a discussion about protocol—not a contest over who is “allowed” to speak.


Additional anatomy clarification
On “what muscle is located there?” There is major pectoral/cranial shoulder muscle mass there. In tortoises, the pectoral muscles attach internally in relation to the plastron, creating a large muscle bed under/just behind the front limbs. That is why pectoral/forelimb musculature is a common IM site, and why the approach shown targets the pectoral/shoulder muscle mass.


Additional clinical reference
A veterinary clinic video demonstrates the same pectoral IM site and technique: “Medicating Turtles and Tortoises – Intramuscular Injections” (Avian and Exotic Animal Clinic of Arizona). In the video, the clinician describes the two large pectoral muscle beds under the front of the shell on either side of the head and demonstrates injecting into that pectoral muscle mass. They also add an important nuance: in very large tortoises, the arm may sometimes be necessary due to size and handling logistics.

In our setting, we handle giants routinely, and that repetition matters. A lot of clinics rarely work with very large, powerful tortoises, so they understandably default to whichever site is easiest to access safely with their staff and restraint options. Our goal in sharing this is to help keepers and clinicians think more deliberately about technique in giants, and to show that—with proper restraint, angle, and muscle targeting—the pectoral approach can be repeatable even in very large animals.


Video link:

Merck Vet Manual (reptile clinical procedures):
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exotic-and-laboratory-animals/reptiles/clinical-procedures-for-reptiles


Now, the larger issue
A real liability to this forum is not “someone disagreeing with you.” A real liability is gatekeeping—where disagreement becomes disqualification, and where people try to shut others down by asserting rank instead of correcting information with facts and sources. That mentality discourages newer keepers from asking questions, pushes discussion into private channels, and ultimately puts real tortoises and turtles at risk.

If something I wrote is wrong, quote it and correct it with specifics and sources. If it’s correct, then the focus should be on the animals—not on whether my delivery was flattering.

I’ve addressed each claim. If you want to continue, keep it specific, sourced, and clinical. Right now this looks less like a clinical disagreement and more like an effort to discredit me personally. I’ve provided anatomy, technique, and references. If you have a factual correction, make it with sources. Otherwise, I’m not responding to further personal commentary.

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Should we thank ChatGPT, or was it another Ai, for this post?

jaizei said:

Should we thank ChatGPT or was it another Ai, for this post?

Click to expand...

Again, this is an attempt to discredit the information by attacking the person instead of addressing the facts. If you have a substantive correction, quote the claim and cite sources. If not, stop derailing.
And yes—this is exactly the kind of behavior that becomes a real liability for a forum when it comes from a moderator. Moderation should elevate evidence-based discussion, not encourage personal swipes and pile-ons.

The larger liability here is not disagreement or members sharing information—it’s moderators allowing a pattern of personal swipes and derailment from a moderator without enforcing the same standards expected of everyone else. When that behavior is tolerated repeatedly, it undermines trust, discourages knowledgeable keepers from participating, and pushes discussion away from evidence-based care. If this forum is going to be credible and useful for tortoise and turtle welfare, the standard has to be consistent: content, sources, and clinical discussion—no personal commentary, including from moderators.

This is a great example of a few people trying to control the conversation with personal reactions instead of facts and sources. The forum has been here for well over a decade—have any of you ever seriously asked why it still remains a relatively small collection of voices?


Have you ever considered that the culture might be part of the problem—especially when moderators allow threads to be steered into sarcasm, authorship speculation, and personal swipes instead of enforcing evidence-based discussion?

This is a great example of a few people trying to control the conversation with personal reactions instead of facts and sources. The forum has been here for well over a decade—have any of you ever seriously asked why it still remains a relatively small collection of voices?
Have you ever considered that the culture might be part of the problem—especially when moderators allow threads to be steered into sarcasm, authorship speculation, and personal swipes instead of enforcing evidence-based discussion? When other moderators turn their heads and allow this instead of speak up?
That’s also why our sanctuary has grown so quickly: we’ve built what we’ve built by staying true—what keeps tortoises stable, safe, and improving—not in status or personal reactions.
This is also why the broader tortoise community keeps moving forward elsewhere: people want practical experience, clear standards, and clinical debate—content, sources, and outcomes—not status games. If this forum wants to grow and remain credible, the standard has to be consistent for everyone, including moderators. Moderators control that standard and the tone it sets—not the general public.

EppsDynasty said:

Again, this is an attempt to discredit the information by attacking the person instead of addressing the facts. If you have a substantive correction, quote the claim and cite sources. If not, stop derailing.
And yes—this is exactly the kind of behavior that becomes a real liability for a forum when it comes from a moderator. Moderation should elevate evidence-based discussion, not encourage personal swipes and pile-ons.

The larger liability here is not disagreement or members sharing information—it’s moderators allowing a pattern of personal swipes and derailment from a moderator without enforcing the same standards expected of everyone else. When that behavior is tolerated repeatedly, it undermines trust, discourages knowledgeable keepers from participating, and pushes discussion away from evidence-based care. If this forum is going to be credible and useful for tortoise and turtle welfare, the standard has to be consistent: content, sources, and clinical discussion—no personal commentary, including from moderators.

This is a great example of a few people trying to control the conversation with personal reactions instead of facts and sources. The forum has been here for well over a decade—have any of you ever seriously asked why it still remains a relatively small collection of voices?


Have you ever considered that the culture might be part of the problem—especially when moderators allow threads to be steered into sarcasm, authorship speculation, and personal swipes instead of enforcing evidence-based discussion?

This is a great example of a few people trying to control the conversation with personal reactions instead of facts and sources. The forum has been here for well over a decade—have any of you ever seriously asked why it still remains a relatively small collection of voices?
Have you ever considered that the culture might be part of the problem—especially when moderators allow threads to be steered into sarcasm, authorship speculation, and personal swipes instead of enforcing evidence-based discussion? When other moderators turn their heads and allow this instead of speak up?
That’s also why our sanctuary has grown so quickly: we’ve built what we’ve built by staying true—what keeps tortoises stable, safe, and improving—not in status or personal reactions.
This is also why the broader tortoise community keeps moving forward elsewhere: people want practical experience, clear standards, and clinical debate—content, sources, and outcomes—not status games. If this forum wants to grow and remain credible, the standard has to be consistent for everyone, including moderators. Moderators control that standard and the tone it sets—not the general public.

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Using Ai to write entire posts is about as disingenuous as plagiarism. Why should you or your posts be taken seriously if you didn't write them? Why should either of these Ai generated posts be taken seriously when you're one of the biggest offenders against decorum.

authorship speculation

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There was no speculation. You are not writing these posts and are using an Ai. Its obvious and based on evidence. I think theres an expectation that members are sharing their own experiences, thoughts, and opinions through their posts that they write. And if thats not the case, they should have the decency to make it clear. If the goal isn't "winning" you wouldn't have resorted to using Ai to make arguments you can't make yourself. Who's "practical experience" is this Ai slop based on?

Ok, I'm done with this thread....

MenagerieGrl said:

Ok, I'm done with this thread....

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I can only imagine what new members and visitors are thinking while reading this thread.

The video that you posted to back up your claims does the exact opposite.

The Vet, or Tech in the video says to angle downwards 30 degrees. He didn't say anything about straight in, or skipping stones. Then they say that in larger tortoises you might need to use the arm. In your video you fill the screen with text suggesting to find a different vet if they give shots in the arm. Why do you trust this guy? Seems disingenuous at best.
I think that plastering your your assertions all over the internet will steer people away from those who are actually qualified to help their animals.

OK here we go ...............@Dustin, @Markw84

The 2 of you think that YOU are the go to authority on tortoises and acted as if my video and info was just crazy. Mark you showed your hand when you said

Markw84 said:

This guy know more about treating tortoises than you ever will.

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So we all have to listen to Dustin huh? I bet you don't even have any large torts except your breeders right? So if your love of torts is the true mission how many worthless torts do you have? How many Red Eared Sliders do you have? How many Sulcatas do you provide a great life for? I bet none cause they aren't worth money.

When you initially questioned me of course I had to research what the topic was and educate myself ..... I have made it clear multiple times I am a man. Meaning I have worked with my hands my whole life NOT a Dr. or biologist just a man, a very hard working man. So I started to wonder "Maybe Mark is right......Hell am I believing our vet team and they're wrong?" So I went to where everyone goes in this day and age the internet.

jaizei said:

Should we thank ChatGPT, or was it another Ai, for this post?

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This is what the MODERATOR response was. And not just any moderator but one with NO TORTOISES and one with no real world experience a literal keyboard surfer. @jaizei is well known for just being a keyboard warrior and not knowing anything about the topic that Google can't tell him.

I have to admit I was very surprised at my very first search of "Giving injections into front leg of tort" then "risks of injecting in legs of tortoises" And what did I find ......... dozens of videos and papers explaining real threats of injury and PAIN with using this method. So when you act like I am just so stupid and just don't know, in fact you look very uninformed with there being tons of info all over making the same exact claims I am. As a matter of fact we are working with a 100 pound Sulcata that received injections into the front leg and developed massive swelling and pain in the leg. The vet admits it is beyond her expertise and informed them to go to a medical college and ask for help ....... WHAT? This tortoise is in a lot of pain and now has a very swollen leg with no one who knows what to do. Multiple CT scans have been done at the expense of the owner and the answer is cellulitis .... yes that is what they have come up with.

This case and others we are and have been involved with is where I get my info from, where do you get yours from? I would bet to guess you have fallen victim of the ole "I am a professional" mentality and stopped learning. You are only a breeder and exposed to issues with a very small number of torts that are mostly healthy, because you provide a safe environment for them granted. But we don't, we don't breed and are always contacted to help with animals no one else will, animals that have real issues and need real help. This is just a different world than the one you live in. I don't hate you, I don't think you are stupid BUT in all actuality I am exposed to far more than you ever will be period. This doesn't make me a genius, this doesn't make me anything but experienced it makes me think everyday of different things that NO ONE is talking about.

Whether you want to admit it or not we are the ONLY ONES doing this ..... there is no one else with 150 Sulcatas in all forms of neglect and they take care of all of them everyday.....no one. The TFO is what created us and now the TFO is trying to destroy us. If your line of thinking is the one to follow then you should be listening to me and not allowed to share.....I am the one who knows more than you, I am the one who actually has these animals now, not just moved onto another species worth more money. I do not think that way at all, I actually believe the biggest benefit we have over other orgs is the TFO...it is people like you. But your hatred of me has taken over your common sense. This method is NOT just our vet teams preferred method but tons of other vets as well, and you are the odd man out not me or them. In short it is your mentality (that is shared by others here) that is the real liability to tortoises and this forum.

In closing ........ my confidence is a turn off to people I get it. That confidence is though what hundreds of life's depend on. Example: Tim and Harold - When there was 2 200 pound torts on a 2 story roofs and NO ONE would help why? Confidence that's why, no one was confident enough in themselves to know they would solve the problem .... save the life's. I had no doubt ..... why? cause I am confident in my own mind that I will NOT give up no matter what, I will commit my entire being to helping real life's in jeopardy. This confidence is not shared by so many and it causes concern, I get it. When we first started so many here were very skeptical of our plans because it had never been done .....yet. Well now it has been done and will continue to be done with or without the TFO.

I am not claiming 100% I am not to blame for some of this but I will not sit and be attacked by not just members but moderators and told my experience is wrong because they don't have that same experience. We are the only ones whether you like it or not and it's looking like we will continue to be for the near future. You hate me, great but what I have been able to achieve in 1 year is this ........ Created a YouTube channel and have over 5 million hours of watch time, Saved hundreds of lives that would not be here if it wasn't for us, Brought real awareness to the suffering of torts that has become acceptable, Built 40,000 sq ft. of enclosures with my own hands, Raised over $100,000 to provide electricity and housing for suffering torts and most of all I have given so many lives a reason to be alive. I have done this without you and in short will be far bigger than you or Dustin ever will be shortly, and just continue to get bigger while you and others are stuck in the past.

Tim Carlisle said:

I can only imagine what new members and visitors are thinking while reading this thread.

Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY my point. What does a newbie think when they see jaizei (a moderator) acting this way? I posted video of the same injection method I posted and yet still I am stupid ..... to stupid to speak. This behavior by jaizei is not new it is in fact a part of WHY the TFO is where it is. ........... what was that in the rear view mirror? The TFO.