Feedback on baby Sulcata enclosure?!

I’m using a 75 gallon, black stock tank with red lava rock in the bottom for drainage, mesh screen, pea pebbles just to hold the mesh, 50/50 soil and sand mixture, and the top layer is reptibark. We built a wire mesh, hinged lid and covered it with foil, but are going to do a rebuild with plexiglass for better monitoring.

She has a log hide on the cool side with coco coir inside and around. A t5 HO tube UVB over the cooler side, and a dome UVB with a reptisun 5.0 on the warm side. For basking/heat I’m currently using an Arcadia white, but am switching to two CHE’s- one for basking (on a thermostat) and one for extra heat. So I don’t have to keep switching night and day so she’s not got white light on at night. The reason for this is because I’m concerned she’s developing an URI. So I upped her heat.

Back story on the URI suspicion; I had a mister on a timer before realizing how bad it was, so we redid her entire enclosure and cut the misters, which is why we’re doing a lid rebuild and adding a greenhouse topper. Before I found this forum, I was under the impression to never let her temps drop below 70 at night, not 80. So not only was she getting high humidity, but also lower temps at night. She stretches her neck and opens her mouth a lot, but I’ve only seen 3 tiny nose bubbles in a week and one eye was a little mucus-y so I took her to a reptile vet. The vet gave me some 2x/day eye drops and recommended the emergency animal hospital if she doesn’t get better. Upon reading on here, a lot of folks don’t recommend giving babies antibiotics so I’m really trying to figure out what is best to do?
- she’s sleepy, but not lethargic
- she’s active and curious
- she’s eating
- she’s peeing
- she responds to touch
- her pull back is strong, but she cannot correct herself if she flips over
- she is fast and is not dragging tummy or legs
BUT she still doesn’t seem 100% and I’m a mess about it.

Basking temp is 95F
Humid hide temp is 77F
Cool side is 79F
Ambient temp is 86F
Digital thermometer is set to 98F
Humidity is between 66-81%

She gets daily, sometimes twice daily soaks between 15-40 minutes. If it’s twice daily, due to my schedule she usually gets 15 minutes each, but I shoot for 25-30 minutes if it’s daily. Her soaks are in a shoebox size tote at 95F and I put the lid on loosely and wrap the base in a red sheet. She loves it.

Back to the enclosure- I’ll add pictures for reference.

Her diet consists a lot of dandelions, dandelion greens and clover as those are her favorite. I’ve grown cat grass for her, she doesn’t mind it. She loves endive and escarole. I’ve tried collards, mustard, turnip greens. I mix romaine sometimes, loves it too much. And I add calcium 3x a week but I keep a cuttlebone in her enclosure. However I don’t think she uses it.

She is currently taking a bath!

Am I missing anything?

* the mister setup will show in the picture, but they haven’t been used in a week. My partner works overnights so we’re removing them with the rebuild this weekend.*

I was growing a mini grass land in her old setup and she loved it, but the plants she has now are a spider plant pup, an aloe pup and a bromeliad. I know she needs more plants and a second humid hide, but I’m afraid of her climbing the other one I have and falling off. I had a moss hide and she kept flipping over inside and I couldn’t see her, so I stressed too much and put the log back. I have a camera inside her enclosure and I watch her while I’m at work. I also had moss, but switched to coco coir after reading how bad the moss is. I got panicky

The first issue I see is the temperature. Get it over 80 day and night. Both CHEs should be on the thermostat. I'd set it to 85-86 to keep it hot day and night until you see no RI symptoms for two weeks. Be sure to soak every day for 30-40 minutes and keep the water warm the whole time. This will ensure good hydration with all the extra heat.

Next problem is the soil and sand. Neither should ever be used because both are potentially harmful. Get rid of all that stuff and replace it with a 3-4 inch layer of plain orchid bark.

Read though all of this for much more helpful info and a better explanation of the above:

Questions are welcome.

All that Tom said above is of the highest priority.

It is good that you removed the moss, its been proven to cause intestinal impactions. (As does sand. And with "soil" you can never tell what is in it, so its not ever a good thing to use any of these in an enclosure.)

The little round tin gauges are not accurate and should only be considered decoration. (A lot of us have been suckered into getting them, myself included, but they just aren't good enough. With your suspected RI you want to be able to make sure its high 80sF temps and its good to keep the humidity of an ill tort, or a young tort, also in the 80s%.)

You did a fairly good job of sealing around the edges of your lights, but every spot where you can see down into the enclosure acts as a chimney to exhaust out your heat and humidity. Snug the foil to the edges of the lamps(and everywhere else you can see into the enclosure) and pinch it down tight.


15 minutes isn't long enough to soak. Even though you did it twice and are thinking it counted as a half hour, it doesn't really. Tortoises do everything slowly, so fifteen minutes is just getting their insides starting to move. Most times your tort will poop in the water, which is a good thing. It keeps their enclosure cleaner, lets you see how well they are digesting things, and if its firm or squishy, etc. Soaking twice per day is great though, (there is almost no such thing as too much soaking), but give the little one more time each time.


Welcome aboard!

Tom said:

The first issue I see is the temperature. Get it over 80 day and night. Both CHEs should be on the thermostat. I'd set it to 85-86 to keep it hot day and night until you see no RI symptoms for two weeks. Be sure to soak every day for 30-40 minutes and keep the water warm the whole time. This will ensure good hydration with all the extra heat.

Next problem is the soil and sand. Neither should ever be used because both are potentially harmful. Get rid of all that stuff and replace it with a 3-4 inch layer of plain orchid bark.

Read though all of this for much more helpful info and a better explanation of the above:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

Click to expand...

Thank you!! I was hoping you would see my post and reply. I did read all of that forum before my account was approved. I had planned to remove the soil and sand, but still wanted input. I was thinking since the soil/sand is under the top layer of reptibark that it was okay because she doesn’t burrow yet, but now I can understand why it’s an issue. She could start burrowing over night without me knowing and then she’d be in contact with the soil and sand.

Could I use coco coir in place of the soil/sand?

Does the hide temp also need to reach above 80? What’s considered a “cool side” for her if everything is the same temp or is that for just while she’s got symptoms?

Even though she has a water dish that I refresh daily, I never see her go in on her own and it bothers me.. I’ve only seen her physically drink with her mouth one time, for over a minute long. But her urine is clear with white, chalky urates. And she goes 9/10x during her soaks.

She hasn’t pooped in two days though and that’s scaring me bc she was pooping 2-3x a day every day up until now. And when I took her to the vet, she peed a LOT.. first puddle was all clear, no urates, but smelled like cat pee.. the second pee smelled like nothing and had normal urates. Was the first pee her reserve or a defense mechanism or something? It smelled so awful..

COmtnLady said:

All that Tom said above is of the highest priority.

It is good that you removed the moss, its been proven to cause intestinal impactions. (As does sand. And with "soil" you can never tell what is in it, so its not ever a good thing to use any of these in an enclosure.)

The little round tin gauges are not accurate and should only be considered decoration. (A lot of us have been suckered into getting them, myself included, but they just aren't good enough. With your suspected RI you want to be able to make sure its high 80sF temps and its good to keep the humidity of an ill tort, or a young tort, also in the 80s%.)

You did a fairly good job of sealing around the edges of your lights, but every spot where you can see down into the enclosure acts as a chimney to exhaust out your heat and humidity. Snug the foil to the edges of the lamps(and everywhere else you can see into the enclosure) and pinch it down tight.


15 minutes isn't long enough to soak. Even though you did it twice and are thinking it counted as a half hour, it doesn't really. Tortoises do everything slowly, so fifteen minutes is just getting their insides starting to move. Most times your tort will poop in the water, which is a good thing. It keeps their enclosure cleaner, lets you see how well they are digesting things, and if its firm or squishy, etc. Soaking twice per day is great though, (there is almost no such thing as too much soaking), but give the little one more time each time.


Welcome aboard!

Click to expand...

Thank you it’s good to know that even though I think it’s doing something, that 15 minutes actually isn’t doing much. And I always think she’s stressed out when trying to climb the walls, but now I will just let her do it. She used to do it constantly bit now she seems to just go to sleep. Which is kind of concerning, so I’m going to do her soaks in the bigger tub I used to do them in and see if she’ll walk around again. Usually she just goes to a corner and sleeps ugh.

My partner and I are doing a lid rebuild today instead of this weekend and we will seal it completely! For my light placement, should I move the smaller CHE over her log hide to distribute heat better? I notice that’s the corner that’s staying under 80F but I didn’t want to make it too hot and dry her out. I just want to get her better and thriving.

Also after sand/soil removal, would adding a cup of warm water to each corner be good for upping humidity since it will sit below everything in the labs rock I have on the bottom layer of her enclosure?

Tom said:

The first issue I see is the temperature. Get it over 80 day and night. Both CHEs should be on the thermostat. I'd set it to 85-86 to keep it hot day and night until you see no RI symptoms for two weeks. Be sure to soak every day for 30-40 minutes and keep the water warm the whole time. This will ensure good hydration with all the extra heat.

Next problem is the soil and sand. Neither should ever be used because both are potentially harmful. Get rid of all that stuff and replace it with a 3-4 inch layer of plain orchid bark.

Read though all of this for much more helpful info and a better explanation of the above:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

Click to expand...

Update; after 1.5 hours in a warm soak and some sunshine, she pooped finally!!

FrecklePeckles15 said:

Could I use coco coir in place of the soil/sand?

Click to expand...

The thing about substrate mixtures or layers is that it always eventually ends up as a blended mix. I would not use coco coir for a baby sulcata. It's not harmful, but it's too messy. Orchid bark works best. Buy it in bulk from Chewy or Petco.com if you can't find it there.

FrecklePeckles15 said:

Does the hide temp also need to reach above 80? What’s considered a “cool side” for her if everything is the same temp or is that for just while she’s got symptoms?

Click to expand...

There is no "cool" side for tropical species. Cool sides and cool nights are for temperate species. This can be confusing when reading about tortoise care when there isn't specific attention to the species being talked about. No part of a sulcata enclosure should ever drop below 80. Ambient in the low 90s is good for day time, and around 100 directly under the basking flood bulb. In your case, because your tortoise is on the verge of sickness, keep it no lower than mid 80s at any time day or night. To make this much easier on you and better for the tortoise, you need a large closed chamber with the heating and lighting inside, not on top. On top creates a chimney effect, even with all the foil. You are losing a large percentage of the heat you are generating up and into the room.

Ground temps where sulcatas come from are 80-85 year round with daytime highs above ground usually around 100. There is no "cool side" in the Sahel.

FrecklePeckles15 said:

Also after sand/soil removal, would adding a cup of warm water to each corner be good for upping humidity since it will sit below everything in the labs rock I have on the bottom layer of her enclosure?

Click to expand...

Generally speaking, yes. You will need to dump water into the substrate periodically to keep it suitably damp. How much water and how often varies tremendously with each enclosure, and even within the same enclosure seasonally. You have to go by feel and by reading your hygrometer.

FrecklePeckles15 said:

Even though she has a water dish that I refresh daily, I never see her go in on her own and it bothers me.. I’ve only seen her physically drink with her mouth one time, for over a minute long. But her urine is clear with white, chalky urates. And she goes 9/10x during her soaks.

Click to expand...

A well hydrated tortoise, because of all your soaks, has no reason to drink water from a dish. This is okay. Offer the dish anyway. You won't always soak every day as he grows.

FrecklePeckles15 said:

She hasn’t pooped in two days though and that’s scaring me bc she was pooping 2-3x a day every day up until now. And when I took her to the vet, she peed a LOT.. first puddle was all clear, no urates, but smelled like cat pee.. the second pee smelled like nothing and had normal urates. Was the first pee her reserve or a defense mechanism or something? It smelled so awful..

Click to expand...

Be careful. Most vets don't know tortoises very well and often offer terrible detrimental advice. Even the ones who claim to be "exotic vets". A trip to the vet is very stressful. I would not have recommended that. Your tortoise doesn't need vet help. It needs the proper temperatures and conditions.

How much does your tortoise weigh? Where did you get it? It shows sigs of an incorrect dry start. Sorry to give bad news, but better that you have all the right information, so that you can make educated decisions.

Tom said:

The thing about substrate mixtures or layers is that it always eventually ends up as a blended mix. I would not use coco coir for a baby sulcata. It's not harmful, but it's too messy. Orchid bark works best. Buy it in bulk from Chewy or Petco.com if you can't find it there.


There is no "cool" side for tropical species. Cool sides and cool nights are for temperate species. This can be confusing when reading about tortoise care when there isn't specific attention to the species being talked about. No part of a sulcata enclosure should ever drop below 80. Ambient in the low 90s is good for day time, and around 100 directly under the basking flood bulb. In your case, because your tortoise is on the verge of sickness, keep it no lower than mid 80s at any time day or night. To make this much easier on you and better for the tortoise, you need a large closed chamber with the heating and lighting inside, not on top. On top creates a chimney effect, even with all the foil. You are losing a large percentage of the heat you are generating up and into the room.

Ground temps where sulcatas come from are 80-85 year round with daytime highs above ground usually around 100. There is no "cool side" in the Sahel.


Generally speaking, yes. You will need to dump water into the substrate periodically to keep it suitably damp. How much water and how often varies tremendously with each enclosure, and even within the same enclosure seasonally. You have to go by feel and by reading your hygrometer.


A well hydrated tortoise, because of all your soaks, has no reason to drink water from a dish. This is okay. Offer the dish anyway. You won't always soak every day as he grows.


Be careful. Most vets don't know tortoises very well and often offer terrible detrimental advice. Even the ones who claim to be "exotic vets". A trip to the vet is very stressful. I would not have recommended that. Your tortoise doesn't need vet help. It needs the proper temperatures and conditions.

How much does your tortoise weigh? Where did you get it? It shows sigs of an incorrect dry start. Sorry to give bad news, but better that you have all the right information, so that you can make educated decisions.

Click to expand...

I was thinking you’d say that about her being started dry. I got her from a breeder out of Kansas City at an expo . I read your threads, I know if anything happens and she was started dry, it wouldn’t necessarily be my fault, but I’m not giving up!

She weighs 56g!!

Today, I removed all sand/soil and replaced it with more mulch. I also ordered 4 more bags from Chewy as I have other reptiles that use it. I have a digital hydrometer coming today, and I got digital Bluetooth thermometer/hydrometer for inside her enclosure. My partner and I remade her lid and all the temps are perfect now according to your advice!! Both CHE are hooked to the thermostat and there are no drafts.

As I mentioned above, she did have a really long soak and she finally had a bowel movement. I gave her a little bit of plain, organic pumpkin in her breakfast and she seemed to enjoy it. After putting her back in her enclosure she was running around, exploring, eating, and finally laid down in her basking area and is currently napping!

I’m not using those tin gauges, but I left them there for now bc I didn’t feel like taking the Velcro off right now. I was running out of time before work.

Her thermostat is set at 89F. Basking is 101F. Each wall is 82/83F. Humidity is reading 87%, but I’ll know better when I gauge it after work.

Should I not use the eye drops from the vet? I don’t want to hurt her. But she seems to be “gasping” less already within the last 24 hours so I’m feeling really hopeful!

FrecklePeckles15 said:

I was thinking you’d say that about her being started dry. I got her from a breeder out of Kansas City at an expo . I read your threads, I know if anything happens and she was started dry, it wouldn’t necessarily be my fault, but I’m not giving up!

She weighs 56g!!

Today, I removed all sand/soil and replaced it with more mulch. I also ordered 4 more bags from Chewy as I have other reptiles that use it. I have a digital hydrometer coming today, and I got digital Bluetooth thermometer/hydrometer for inside her enclosure. My partner and I remade her lid and all the temps are perfect now according to your advice!! Both CHE are hooked to the thermostat and there are no drafts.

As I mentioned above, she did have a really long soak and she finally had a bowel movement. I gave her a little bit of plain, organic pumpkin in her breakfast and she seemed to enjoy it. After putting her back in her enclosure she was running around, exploring, eating, and finally laid down in her basking area and is currently napping!

I’m not using those tin gauges, but I left them there for now bc I didn’t feel like taking the Velcro off right now. I was running out of time before work.

Her thermostat is set at 89F. Basking is 101F. Each wall is 82/83F. Humidity is reading 87%, but I’ll know better when I gauge it after work.

Should I not use the eye drops from the vet? I don’t want to hurt her. But she seems to be “gasping” less already within the last 24 hours so I’m feeling really hopeful!

Click to expand...

I don't think the eye drops will hurt anything, but I also don't they will help anything either. Use them if you want to.

Sounds like you are on the right track with everything. Please feel free to question any of this and anything else too. And please do a thread in the "Other Pets" section and tell us about your other reptiles. I've got quite a few too and I love talking about reptiles in general.

Tom said:

I don't think the eye drops will hurt anything, but I also don't they will help anything either. Use them if you want to.

Sounds like you are on the right track with everything. Please feel free to question any of this and anything else too. And please do a thread in the "Other Pets" section and tell us about your other reptiles. I've got quite a few too and I love talking about reptiles in general.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your help! I watch my enclosure camera while I’m at work and this is the most active I’ve seen her in a week. Maybe she just really needed to poop.

At what weight is she/or will she be out of the woods for hatchling failure syndrome?

I will show my other pets too.. I also just found the tarantula forum I have an LP named Hippo!

FrecklePeckles15 said:

Thank you for your help! I watch my enclosure camera while I’m at work and this is the most active I’ve seen her in a week. Maybe she just really needed to poop.

At what weight is she/or will she be out of the woods for hatchling failure syndrome?

I will show my other pets too.. I also just found the tarantula forum I have an LP named Hippo!

Click to expand...

I have an LP too!

When they are failing due to a poor start, they usually stall at right around 50 grams. So 56 is sounding promising. Weigh once a week, and if you are seeing a trend of growth, you will be golden.

Tom said:

I have an LP too!

When they are failing due to a poor start, they usually stall at right around 50 grams. So 56 is sounding promising. Weigh once a week, and if you are seeing a trend of growth, you will be golden.

Click to expand...

Okay! She was 50g on March 10. 51g on March 17. 53g on April 1 and 56g on April 6!!

I just checked humidity and it’s at 71.7%/91.2F directly in the middle on her rock slab. 86.6%/84F on top of her log hide and 88%/82F inside of her log hide!! There’s condensation on the under side of her enclosure lid! She seems much more alert and hungry today.

Full body, outward stretches are normal, right? My camera picked her up twice doing a “flying stretch” and I think it’s adorable, but my partner wanted me to ask and make sure she’s not trying to ‘take a deep breath’ or something.

FrecklePeckles15 said:

Okay! She was 50g on March 10. 51g on March 17. 53g on April 1 and 56g on April 6!!

I just checked humidity and it’s at 71.7%/91.2F directly in the middle on her rock slab. 86.6%/84F on top of her log hide and 88%/82F inside of her log hide!! There’s condensation on the under side of her enclosure lid! She seems much more alert and hungry today.

Click to expand...

I just setup my Bluetooth hydrometer/thermometer. I just put it in the center of her enclosure and set these thresholds to be alerted if over/under. Are they correct?

The above comment %/F were done with my handheld digital. Here is what my Bluetooth says in comparison: Direct middle- 67.4%/93.1F

You may want to bury the slab deeper into the substrate. It has sharp edges, and while they won't do any real damage, they will cause little dings in the plastron. Those will heal easily enough, but they leave little scars and divots that will be there "ever more". If it was me I'd just make it so that your tort can easily walk from substrate to slab surface, level. (Yes, that will walk chips and dust onto the slab, but that's just housekeeping.)


.

FrecklePeckles15 said:

I just setup my Bluetooth hydrometer/thermometer. I just put it in the center of her enclosure and set these thresholds to be alerted if over/under. Are they correct?

The above comment %/F were done with my handheld digital. Here is what my Bluetooth says in comparison: Direct middle- 67.4%/93.1F

Click to expand...

I just wanted to say that you have a TERRIFIC ATTITUDE!! Asking for AND ACCEPTING help is what makes for excellent tortoise keepers! You totally rock, and your little tortoise was very smart to have chosen you! ❤

Moozillion said:

I just wanted to say that you have a TERRIFIC ATTITUDE!! Asking for AND ACCEPTING help is what makes for excellent tortoise keepers! You totally rock, and your little tortoise was very smart to have chosen you! ❤

Click to expand...

Thank you so much! she’s not our first reptile, but our first tortoise and we love her so much and want her to thrive and live the best life. I thought I did a lot of research, enough to get us through this stage and I was really wrong and misinformed. I’m so glad to have found TFO! She’s doing so much better already. She may not have an RI, or may have the start of one, but my temps were definitely a huge factor in her behavior and I can tell. She doesn’t “gasp” that I’ve seen, in 36 hours. I haven’t seen any nose bubbles since Monday, still stretches her neck a bit, but not near as much. She’s eaten more since yesterday than she has all week and she’s so active! Woke right up for breakfast this morning and actually had to find a different spot to sleep overnight bc where she normally was sleeping, got too warm for her I think. It was her basking area, and I checked all other temps this morning and it’s fabulous!

FrecklePeckles15 said:

Full body, outward stretches are normal, right? My camera picked her up twice doing a “flying stretch” and I think it’s adorable, but my partner wanted me to ask and make sure she’s not trying to ‘take a deep breath’ or something.

Click to expand...

Stretches like this and the neck stretch are indeed signs of RI. I think you've caught it early enough to stop it, but you've got to get the temperatures up and keep them up. It should be no lower than 85-86 anywhere in the enclosure day or night. Ambient temperature should climb into the low 90s during the day. Get it hot in there. Africa hot. Keep temps this high until you don't see any RI symptoms for at least two weeks. After that, you can allow it to drop down to where it is now with 82 in the hide and 84 near the hide.

Tom said:

Stretches like this and the neck stretch are indeed signs of RI. I think you've caught it early enough to stop it, but you've got to get the temperatures up and keep them up. It should be no lower than 85-86 anywhere in the enclosure day or night. Ambient temperature should climb into the low 90s during the day. Get it hot in there. Africa hot. Keep temps this high until you don't see any RI symptoms for at least two weeks. After that, you can allow it to drop down to where it is now with 82 in the hide and 84 near the hide.

Click to expand...

Awh I thought it was so cute the way she was stretching; like a flying sploot. Do torts stretch like that when not sick, or at all?

We’re really dialed in on her temps now though and I’m confident with her enclosure since we fixed everything. The gasping/open mouth breathing was what was scaring me the most and she’s no longer doing that. I agree that I think it’s the early onset of an RI, and I’m very hopeful she’s going to make a full recovery!

She ate all her food today, and she’s never done that. She was acting like a mammal this morning, waiting by her feeding spot as soon as the light came on, because she was so hungry! like a cat that pretends they’re never fed, after they eat all their food