HELP Moving house has made Tortoise brumate AGAIN

Hi,

My mum and I have recently moved from the south of England where temperatures vary between 20c to 30c to Scotland where the temperature is generally between -5c and 15c.
Before the move my mum's 6 year old tortoise (Fern) had recently woken up from winter brumation (she was awake for about a month).
Admittedly it wasn't a proper brumation (I know this is an issue). She's been a bit of a nightmare to brumate. My mum's tried all the methods but Fern just DOES NOT sleep if she's anywhere other than her enclosure, so mum's just tried to keep her awake every year (which has worked to an extent). We kept hoping she would grow out of it but she hasn't yet. We know this is a big issue and are planning to proper sort it next year and try out the fridge method. Anyway....
When mum got up to Scotland, Fern was awake for a few days but then decided she wanted to brumate AGAIN. We've tried to keep her awake but she's dug herself a hole and refuses to move. At one point she got up ate a bit and then buried herself again. She's been like this for a while now. Does anyone have any advice? I know her care isn't adequate at the moment, we're working on it. Please keep things civil, we want to learn and do better.

P.S. Fern's enclosure at the moment is a large indoor cage (which we made) and an outdoor run for the summer. A few months ago (before the move) Fern was taken to the vet for a check-up where they said she was perfectly healthy.

Thanks,
Emily

Welcome to the forum!

Tortoises don't like change, and this could be a reaction to the new environment.

Tom outlines the steps to prevent brumation in his thread:
"Here are steps to take if you don't want to brumate your temperate species:
1. Add bright LED lighting in the 5000-6500K color range. Lots of it. Make it look like daytime outside looks.
2. Set light timers to be on for 13-14 hours.
3. Bump all ambient temperatures up a bit.
4. Keep night temps warmer. Shoot for no lower than the 70s over night.
5. Pull the tortoise out of hiding and soak it often. Don't let it stay hidden in a cool hide box all day.
6. I usually run HO UV tubes for 2-3 hours mid day. To keep a tortoise up, I might bump them up to 6-8 hours a day."

What kind of tortoise is Fern?

If your tortoise has eaten anything in the last two weeks (or more accurately, the last two before she dug into her burrow) You DO NOT want her to brumate. The food will sit in her digestive tract and rot its way though, killing her.

She probably dug her burrow because she is cold, plus everything is different and she's probably not comfortable with all the changes.

Get her out of the burrow and block it off so that she can't get back into it.
Convince her it is Summer with long hours of light.

Raise the temps in her enclosure up so that she is not cold. The only way to keep the heat in is to enclose her habitat. It needs to be sealed closed. Any crack or gap will allow the heat and humidity to escape into the rest of the room.

How are you heating her enclosure? Do you have Ceramic Heat Emitters?

Soak her every day in warm water (36-37C) for at least 45 minutes, keeping the water warm the entire time, to keep her hydrated. Twice per day would be even better.

@Tom
@zovick
@Yvonne G


.

I agree with above. Please check light, enclosure size, heat and diet. Tortoise hate change. Mine brumated in full and is a very active every day. He also has indoor and outdoor enc but I only put him out when there is warm sun. In addition check the enclosure layout and size. Low rocks and hides help to provide interest and enrichment for them to explore by blocking end to end vision. Regular warm shallow soaks help with hydration and body functions.

COmtnLady said:

What kind of tortoise is Fern?

If your tortoise has eaten anything in the last two weeks (or more accurately, the last two before she dug into her burrow) You DO NOT want her to brumate. The food will sit in her digestive tract and rot its way though, killing her.

She probably dug her burrow because she is cold, plus everything is different and she's probably not comfortable with all the changes.

Get her out of the burrow and block it off so that she can't get back into it.
Convince her it is Summer with long hours of light.

Raise the temps in her enclosure up so that she is not cold. The only way to keep the heat in is to enclose her habitat. It needs to be sealed closed. Any crack or gap will allow the heat and humidity to escape into the rest of the room.

How are you heating her enclosure? Do you have Ceramic Heat Emitters?

Soak her every day in warm water (36-37C) for at least 45 minutes, keeping the water warm the entire time, to keep her hydrated. Twice per day would be even better.

@Tom
@zovick
@Yvonne G


.

Click to expand...

Hi,
To answer your questions. She hasn't eaten in around three weeks. She does have D3 100W basking lamp and H0T5 D3 39 WATT LED lighting. Her indoor enclosure is a big shelving unit that we made into her cage . We have been soaking her in warm water almost everyday until she gets annoyed but will defo start ramping that up as she just takes herself to bed immediately after. The hide thing is a bit tricky because we took her big hides out to stop her from brummating but she just buries herself in the soil. Covering her enclosure might be a good idea as the heat might be escaping.
Mum is looking to upgrade to a bigger enclosure as she's grown quite a big over the winter but because of how unhappy she is about the temp change we're a bit worried it would be too much change too quick but at the same time it might encourage her to explore.
Oh and to answer the other person's message, she's on a diet of tortoise pellets (we know they are bad for her but she won't eat her food unless the pellets are there, so we just put a small amount in), weeds (like dandelion leaves and flowers), salad (if we can't find weeds), flowers (that she can eat) and tomatoes/carrots/strawberries as a treat.

Thanks

ColliflowerEmily said:

Hi,
To answer your questions. She hasn't eaten in around three weeks. She does have D3 100W basking lamp and H0T5 D3 39 WATT LED lighting. Her indoor enclosure is a big shelving unit that we made into her cage . We have been soaking her in warm water almost everyday until she gets annoyed but will defo start ramping that up as she just takes herself to bed immediately after. The hide thing is a bit tricky because we took her big hides out to stop her from brummating but she just buries herself in the soil. Covering her enclosure might be a good idea as the heat might be escaping.
Mum is looking to upgrade to a bigger enclosure as she's grown quite a big over the winter but because of how unhappy she is about the temp change we're a bit worried it would be too much change too quick but at the same time it might encourage her to explore.
Oh and to answer the other person's message, she's on a diet of tortoise pellets (we know they are bad for her but she won't eat her food unless the pellets are there, so we just put a small amount in), weeds (like dandelion leaves and flowers), salad (if we can't find weeds), flowers (that she can eat) and tomatoes/carrots/strawberries as a treat.

Thanks

Click to expand...

Oh and she's a Hermann tortoise.

Some pellets are better than others, what kind are you using?

The_Four_Toed_Edward said:

Some pellets are better than others, what kind are you using?

Click to expand...

Komodo Tortoise Diet (Fruit and Flower) high in Fibre

Well, as others have suggested, get Fern into summer time, Light, and warmth, and keep up with the soaks.

Covering her enclosure might be a good idea as the heat might be escaping.

Click to expand...

Not might, absolutely is escaping...

Because heat rises, you need to close the top and sides tightly to keep the heat (and humidity) inside. Its best if the lights and such are inside, too, so a tent over the top works well. A sheet of plastic, a shower curtain, a tarp, something water/air-proof, draped over a rod or suspended from the ceiling, securely taped to the sides of the enclosure, every place the edges flap over needs taped closed. Every single gap needs to be sealed closed. Seal it up tight! Its important. (Don't let the tent/cover touch any of the hot things, like the lights, that can be a fire hazard.) If its not sealed it is about the same as you trying to keep warm in your house while leaving all the doors and windows wide open.

This might give you some ideas to adapt and borrow from.




About soaking ~
The scrabbling around in her soak is good exercise. Don't take that away from her, she needs to move for her system to function well. She should soak for at least a half-hour, longer would be better, every day until she's perky and back to her old self. Keep the water warm for the entire time - since it is only as deep as where the top and bottom shells come together, it will cool off quickly watch it closely. Keep it warm. Her problem is that she is too cold, if the water cools below 35C it will cool her down too (exactly what you do NOT want). If she starts climbing the sides, that is a very good thing.




.

Have you had a chance to look through this one yet?

Hello @ColliflowerEmily
As a (very much) amateur, I can only say that you've been given the best advice here by all.
I've seen a reluctance to come out of "hibernation" in our 10-year-old hermanni, and have solved it with light and heat (as advised in these forums), and in particular by ignoring the temptation to take *night-time* temperatures down.
If your house is an average temperature, it's too cold even for night-time, especially with an open tank.
Our place is at around 18 Celsius, but our terrariums are warmer than that even at night, or at least for the first month "out".

For a more permanent enclosure, read this: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/b...-pvc-enclosed-chamber-–-for-beginners.159220/

We built two of these and have never regretted it.
If you do build, follow the instructions exactly. Wherever we deviated (runners and doors) we encountered problems.
And, fingers crossed, a Scotts price would be closer to a US price. Here in Switzerland, the tanks weighed in at 10 times the price quoted in the design piece, exclusively due to the cost of the materials. But they are what the torts need.

Good luck, especially to Fern.

ColliflowerEmily said:

Hi,

My mum and I have recently moved from the south of England where temperatures vary between 20c to 30c to Scotland where the temperature is generally between -5c and 15c.
Before the move my mum's 6 year old tortoise (Fern) had recently woken up from winter brumation (she was awake for about a month).
Admittedly it wasn't a proper brumation (I know this is an issue). She's been a bit of a nightmare to brumate. My mum's tried all the methods but Fern just DOES NOT sleep if she's anywhere other than her enclosure, so mum's just tried to keep her awake every year (which has worked to an extent). We kept hoping she would grow out of it but she hasn't yet. We know this is a big issue and are planning to proper sort it next year and try out the fridge method. Anyway....
When mum got up to Scotland, Fern was awake for a few days but then decided she wanted to brumate AGAIN. We've tried to keep her awake but she's dug herself a hole and refuses to move. At one point she got up ate a bit and then buried herself again. She's been like this for a while now. Does anyone have any advice? I know her care isn't adequate at the moment, we're working on it. Please keep things civil, we want to learn and do better.

P.S. Fern's enclosure at the moment is a large indoor cage (which we made) and an outdoor run for the summer. A few months ago (before the move) Fern was taken to the vet for a check-up where they said she was perfectly healthy.

Thanks,
Emily

Click to expand...

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all the advice. With a new stronger light and frequent warm baths, Fern has been awake for about a week. Mum's brought a bigger enclosure and is planning on getting a cover to keep the warmth in. The daytime temp is sitting at 22c and the basking spot is at 35c but we think it's getting too cold at night, so hoping a cover will help with that.

Kind regards,
Emily Collicott

Glad she's doing better.

I'd warm it up even more (28-29C) for a a few more weeks, until she's really active and back to her old self.

You might as well get everything set up. One disruptive change is better than ongoing/repeated changes.

Tell us how she's doing as the calendar progresses.

ColliflowerEmily said:

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all the advice. With a new stronger light and frequent warm baths, Fern has been awake for about a week. Mum's brought a bigger enclosure and is planning on getting a cover to keep the warmth in. The daytime temp is sitting at 22c and the basking spot is at 35c but we think it's getting too cold at night, so hoping a cover will help with that.

Kind regards,
Emily Collicott

Click to expand...

Hello from a fellow uk member! How’s she been getting on?

I can see you were linked my housing thread above, I hope you found it useful, it covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc), correct levels, appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, and the tortoise table link(Really useful tool)

Now that housing thread discusses an open top set up, which is fine for adult tortoises, but I will say, knowing how cold our uk winters get, for those who don’t brumate their temperate species, they can really struggle keeping their temperates where needed, a cover can come in really handy for maintaining your heat so it’s great you’re adding one, hopefully you’ll find ideas in the ‘visual inspiration’ link. Technically the most efficient closed set ups are melamine/pvc vivs. A place called Southdown aquatics actually does custom sized vivs in the uk If you’re ever considering another upgrade one day, I have links to other companies too, they definitely make maintaining temperatures so easy year round.

This one is good to go over and keep on hand too, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

I’d definitely add some ambient lighting, For the time of year she starts slowing down, you can put both basking and ambient lights on for an extra few hours, essentially mimicking a longer summers day. Ultimately the best you can do is keep her warm and well lit during our colder months if you’re wanting to keep her awake, some tortoises still do slow down in winter which isn’t ideal.

I’m glad she’s starting to perk up! This could’ve been stress related from the move, they hate any kind of changes lol.

Let me know if you ever need any uk links to products or anything