I really want to know because I want to get another tort that can live with my red foot. I could just get another redfoot to put in there but cherry heads are prettier and it will be easier to tell them apart.
Can a cherry head and redfoot live together?
- Thread starter Angrycowgoesmoo
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well yes they are basically the same species of tortoise
Do they have the same needs as a red foot?
Angrycowgoesmoo said:
That's like asking "Can Americans and Europeans live together?" !
dmmj said:
LOL !
There is some debate as to whether northern redfoots and southern cherryheads are both Chelonoidis carbonaria. Certainly, they are each other's closest relatives, with the yellowfoot species (C. denticulata) being the next closest. At this point, redfoots and cherryheads are both considered part of the redfoot species. However, yellow-headed redfoots may be more tolerant of drier conditions than cherryheaded redfoots.
The yellow-footed tortoise (C. denticulata) is found only in moist tropical rain forest. Northern redfoots occupy rain forests when yellowfoots are absent, but occupy open savannas when yellowfoots are present. In other words, redfoots seem to prefer rainforest, but still do well in savannas, too. Cherry-headed redfoots, however, being from the southern, Brazilian part of the range, are found only in rain forest. This could be because they don't have to compete with yellowfoots, because they are less tolerant of semi-arid conditions, or because savannas are simply not particularly common down there.
The point is, both races are redfoots, but you'd probably have to keep their enclosure humid, which the cherryheads seem to require, and the "regular" redfoots seem to prefer. Beyond the head color difference, cherryheads also don't get as big as their yellow-headed conspecifics, either.
I would worry about these two groups hybridizing with each other. Being from the same species (but perhaps different subspecies, clines, or simply populations), their hybrid offspring would likely be completely fertile, or have very little reduction in fertility (maybe some lower sperm counts in the males). It would be a shame to introduce such artificial hybrids into the captive population. Better to keep them separate so they can breed with their own group and maintain the type.
The yellow-footed tortoise (C. denticulata) is found only in moist tropical rain forest. Northern redfoots occupy rain forests when yellowfoots are absent, but occupy open savannas when yellowfoots are present. In other words, redfoots seem to prefer rainforest, but still do well in savannas, too. Cherry-headed redfoots, however, being from the southern, Brazilian part of the range, are found only in rain forest. This could be because they don't have to compete with yellowfoots, because they are less tolerant of semi-arid conditions, or because savannas are simply not particularly common down there.
The point is, both races are redfoots, but you'd probably have to keep their enclosure humid, which the cherryheads seem to require, and the "regular" redfoots seem to prefer. Beyond the head color difference, cherryheads also don't get as big as their yellow-headed conspecifics, either.
I would worry about these two groups hybridizing with each other. Being from the same species (but perhaps different subspecies, clines, or simply populations), their hybrid offspring would likely be completely fertile, or have very little reduction in fertility (maybe some lower sperm counts in the males). It would be a shame to introduce such artificial hybrids into the captive population. Better to keep them separate so they can breed with their own group and maintain the type.
GeoTerraTestudo said:
I'm not trying to breed them I don't want to have any babies. Besides they can't since my red foot's only a baby. I just wanted to get a colorful one
But I guess I'll just get another red foot instead of a cherry head it saves me money any ways
Angrycowgoesmoo said:I'm not trying to breed them I don't want to have any babies. Besides they can't since my red foot's only a baby. I just wanted to get a colorful one
Oh that's right, I forgot to mention that cherryheads are a lot pricier, too.
I realize you might not be trying to breed them, but if you have reproductively compatible animals together, then once they get old enough, they might breed whether you're planning for it or not. Sounds like that might be a while for your tortoises, but still, there might come a day when you find a clutch of eggs in your pen. Better to be sure it's a healthy clutch, rather than an odd one.
Actually, I do not know if there is a zone of intergradation where the ranges of northern redfoots and cherryheads overlap. Maybe there is, or maybe they are completely disjunct in nature. I hope that information is available somewhere. Box turtle subspecies intergrade in North America, and I think that Russian tortoises do so in Central Asia as well. Anyway, unless there are inbreeding problems and offspring are being born with genetic diseases, I think it's best to breed animals with individuals of the type they would encounter in the wild.
The 'common' or Northern Red-foot and the 'Southern Red-foot' or Brazilian or cherry-head Red-foot may or may not be the same species, but cherry-heads will do fine treated like a common or Northern Red-foot.
Cherry-heads tolerate a wider range of temps and harsher conditions than the Northerns do. They generally are more active in cooler temps, etc.
Cherry-heads tolerate a wider range of temps and harsher conditions than the Northerns do. They generally are more active in cooler temps, etc.
Madkins007 said:
Thanks I was looking for an answer like that
GeoTerraTestudo said:Angrycowgoesmoo said:I'm not trying to breed them I don't want to have any babies. Besides they can't since my red foot's only a baby. I just wanted to get a colorful one
Oh that's right, I forgot to mention that cherryheads are a lot pricier, too.
I realize you might not be trying to breed them, but if you have reproductively compatible animals together, then once they get old enough, they might breed whether you're planning for it or not. Sounds like that might be a while for your tortoises, but still, there might come a day when you find a clutch of eggs in your pen. Better to be sure it's a healthy clutch, rather than an odd one.
Actually, I do not know if there is a zone of intergradation where the ranges of northern redfoots and cherryheads overlap. Maybe there is, or maybe they are completely disjunct in nature. I hope that information is available somewhere. Box turtle subspecies intergrade in North America, and I think that Russian tortoises do so in Central Asia as well. Anyway, unless there are inbreeding problems and offspring are being born with genetic diseases, I think it's best to breed animals with individuals of the type they would encounter in the wild.
I was gonna ask the breeder that I would get the cherry head to give me the same gender as the red foot so I am positive I won't get babies.
Madkins007 said:
Mark, I am surprised to hear that it is the cherryheads that are hardier. After all, they are deeper in the tropics. Northern redfoots have been known to live in both rain forest and savanna, and are even established on Trinidad and Tobago. Are cherryheads able to tolerate a variety of conditions because they can be found at higher elevations?
Angrycowgoesmoo said:
Well, that certainly would solve that problem.
The Brazilian Red-foots come from well south of the rain forest, near the southern edge of the tropics zone (here is a range map based on the best information I have- http://tortoiselibrary.com/rfrange.html). The weather is much more temperate- it actually freezes once in a while, does not rain as often, and the main habitat is scrub and thorn forest, heavy in cacti- similar to the conditions in the Gran Chaco where the Gran Chaco, or other southern Red-foots come from.
Northern Red-foots are most often found in savanna but it is a warm and wet savanna, rarely getting too cool or dry- although I believe they are having a drought in much of the range for the last several years.
The idea that Red-foots are a rain forest animal leads to a lot of misunderstandings, like them not needing UVB, or not liking thermal gradients, etc. While they are found in the rain forest, that is not their most common habitat. Yellow-foots are the true rain forest species.
Northern Red-foots are most often found in savanna but it is a warm and wet savanna, rarely getting too cool or dry- although I believe they are having a drought in much of the range for the last several years.
The idea that Red-foots are a rain forest animal leads to a lot of misunderstandings, like them not needing UVB, or not liking thermal gradients, etc. While they are found in the rain forest, that is not their most common habitat. Yellow-foots are the true rain forest species.
Madkins007 said:
Fascinating, Mark. Thanks. The link to the map you provided is broken. Can you show us a range map for C. carbonaria, including both northerns and cherryheads? Also, if you can provide a range map for C. denticulata, that would be cool, too. Sorry if this constitutes hijacking this thread. I'd be happy to pick this up elsewhere if need be.
GeoTerraTestudo said:
From the TortoiseLibrary.com site, it is listed as 'range map' under Red- and Yellow-foots. I'm going to try the link again- http://tortoiselibrary.com/rfrange.html
Wow, that is excellent. Great map. Looks like the first link didn't work because of the parenthesis after it, but the second one certainly did. I didn't realize there were so many different recognized regions for the redfoot tortoise. Do they all look different from each other, or are they all either just "regular" or "cherryhead" races? If you have any pix from each region, or have a link to such pictures, please let us know. Thanks!
GeoTerraTestudo said:
There is an "Important Thread" at the top of the page about this !
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-Different-Races-of-Redfoot-Tortoise#axzz1WOfAx0LF
Thanks, Mike. I just posted a pic on that thread of a redfoot I saw in west-central Venezuela.
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