Can a tortoise get sad? :-(

[tortoishell]

This is more of a rant, but j believe that all animals have the ability to feel emotions. You've seen dogs and cats send signs that they're happy. In the wild, there have been cases of siblings, mates, etc caring for each other. I believe there is something about a bear caring for his wounded sister. Doesn't this count as love?
I'm not saying that all animals express emotions ever in their lifetime, but we don't know that they just don't find a need for it.
I've always said that that's a big difference between animals and humans. Animals, as far as we know, want nothing more than to survive.
Fictional novels aside, we have no need to love, hate, or feel sadness. I'm not saying that we can't. I just want to get rid of the stereotype that animals are mentally less functional than we are. It is my firm belief that animals can feel. Whether they want to express these emotions is a different matter. This wasn't based off of science, but I don't think it's morally right to call an animal dumb because we can't see beyond their faces.
I'm getting on a long rant. Just, I think animals feel emotions.

 

[JoesMum]

I don't think torts feel sad like you or I do. Or even like a dog does.

They're not social creatures. They don't miss company and get lonely.

They know what they like and dislike and I suspect that's pretty much the limit of tortoise happiness.

If they don't like the size of a space, the food available, the incomer to their territory then they'll attempt to do something about it. Otherwise they'll stay put and eat.

If they can't do something about what they don't like then withdrawal and failure to thrive is common, but I wouldn't call that sadness.

 

[kathykit]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

'Sadness' and 'anger' are human emotions. Tortoises don't have human emotions. They get stressed and afraid and maybe protective of their space, but not anger or sad or lonely.

Thank you all of the infomation!
I just worry about my little tortoise! He try to hide and doesn't eat.
I thought is that he feel sad because I just keep a little dog as a pet!
But I will try to take more care of my tortoise.

 

[MichiganFrog]

One of our male sulcatas seems to get upset when I don't feed him every day. Usually he'll do something like try to walk all over the food tray and refuse to eat when I try to feed him after Sibi has been feeding him for a few days. After a few tries, he eventually does eat, but I interpret his initial behavior as his way of showing me that he's upset at me for not having fed him for the past few days. Whether it's because he missed me or it's just because he's just a creature of habit, I don't know. Not everyone may agree with my assessment, but I have to say that I think that at least some tortoises are a lot more complicated than they might appear.

 

[tortoishell]

Michigan Frog, I completely agree with you. It's not right to judge a living being from what we can see on the outside. I feel like a lot of us are saying that only humans can feel emotions, but as far as I know, we've never been inside an animal's brain.

 

[Beasty_Artemis]

My Red Footed tortoise will just bury herself in her moss after I take her out for food and water if I don't talk to her. Hide under her log.
But if I stand around my tortoise table where she can see me, and chat with her, she hangs out for hours. She comes to my voice and tries to climb up the wall to get to me! She also climbs on top of her hide logs when she gets attention, so I made the slope more gentle with some moss.

 

[tortoishell]

My Red Footed tortoise will just bury herself in her moss after I take her out for food and water if I don't talk to her. Hide under her log.
But if I stand around my tortoise table where she can see me, and chat with her, she hangs out for hours. She comes to my voice and tries to climb up the wall to get to me! She also climbs on top of her hide logs when she gets attention, so I made the slope more gentle with some moss.

I would say that's a great example of happiness and/or love. Glad to hear your tort likes it!

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

One of our male sulcatas seems to get upset when I don't feed him every day. Usually he'll do something like try to walk all over the food tray and refuse to eat when I try to feed him after Sibi has been feeding him for a few days. After a few tries, he eventually does eat, but I interpret his initial behavior as his way of showing me that he's upset at me for not having fed him for the past few days. Whether it's because he missed me or it's just because he's just a creature of habit, I don't know. Not everyone may agree with my assessment, but I have to say that I think that at least some tortoises are a lot more complicated than they might appear.

Agreed.
Emotions are survival tools.
Evolution ensures that an individual animal has the correct set of emotions to the necessary degree to allow the more likely survival of the individual and species.
Therefore different species have different emotions not necessarily the same, or to the same degree, as ours.
Tortoises are complicated vertebrates with a long evolutionary history.
They have emotions in their survival kit, but they may not always be comparable to ours and they certainly can't think about them and analyse them like us.
'Happy' and 'sad' are probably not the right adjectives, but content and not content would apply.

 

[tortoishell]

Agreed.
Emotions are survival tools.
Evolution ensures that an individual animal has the correct set of emotions to the necessary degree to allow the more likely survival of the individual and species.
Therefore different species have different emotions not necessarily the same, or to the same degree, as ours.
Tortoises are complicated vertebrates with a long evolutionary history.
They have emotions in their survival kit, but they may not always be comparable to ours and they certainly can't think about them and analyse them like us.
'Happy' and 'sad' are probably not the right adjectives, but content and not content would apply.

Couldn't have put it better . Tortoises most probably experience emotions beyond what we can understand. We don't know whether they respond or realize it.

 

[enzot91]

One thing that's often overlooked when this topic comes up is the fact that owners imagining their animals to be 'happy' or 'sad' can have a knock on effect on their wellbeing. If someone thinks their tortoise is sad for example, it's likely that they'll try to fix this and in turn look after them better. This is why I'm ok with it, and in fact I think it can be a positive thing more often than not.

 

[Big Charlie]

One thing that's often overlooked when this topic comes up is the fact that owners imagining their animals to be 'happy' or 'sad' can have a knock on effect on their wellbeing. If someone thinks their tortoise is sad for example, it's likely that they'll try to fix this and in turn look after them better. This is why I'm ok with it, and in fact I think it can be a positive thing more often than not.

Very good point! When Charlie sees me and starts coming towards me, I can't help but think he is hopeful that I'm going to get him a treat. I feel guilty if I walk away from him. I run and quickly cut off a few hibiscus branches so he won't be disappointed.

 

[sibi]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

'Sadness' and 'anger' are human emotions. Tortoises don't have human emotions. They get stressed and afraid and maybe protective of their space, but not anger or sad or lonely.

Sorry Yvonne, I have to disagree. Who says that sadness and anger are only human emotions? Whether you believe in evolution or creation, it doesn't prove that humans are the only animals to experience sadness or anger. I think you'd have experts on animal behavior disagree with you too. Take for instance, the elephant. When one of their own dies, they've displayed a behavior that resembles that of humans when we grieve. They gather together, stay with their dead, wailing for days. Sadness? You can't convince me that animals don't feel sadness. In fact, it had been documented that when an animal experiences the death of their offspring or mate, they have often given up the will to live. And, anger? Again, look at the behaviors of elephants. It's not fear that moves the elephant to stampede and charge their target when they feel threatened. If evolution gave these emotions to animals, fine. I rather believe that God gave some animals emotions of sadness and anger, among others. The scriptures say that God made man in his image, that is, with attributes and qualities that he has. Love, sadness, anger are some such qualities. It's also reasonable to say that before man, he created animals with similar qualities. Why wouldn't he? The main difference between animals and humans is the ability to reason and understand/ analyze, which animals cannot do. But, to say that animals can't reason; therefore, they can't feel emotions is a fallacy.Animals show anger and sadness differently than humans. But, to say they only have emotions of fear would be an understatement.

 

[tortoishell]

I agree but I just want to add that animals not being able to analyze in the way humans do is not necessarily a bad thing nor does that makes animals inferior; I'm not saying that Sibi said that but it seems to be floating around this thread.

 

[dmmj]

could it be an elephant feeling sad over the death of another simply them worrying about the survival of the group? Maybe they stay around for days because they don't understand why the elephant is not moving? for them to feel "sad" over the death of another elephant they would have to understand what death is and I don't think they know what that is.

 

[dmmj]

just some thoughts

 

[sibi]

could it be an elephant feeling sad over the death of another simply them worrying about the survival of the group? Maybe they stay around for days because they don't understand why the elephant is not moving? for them to feel "sad" over the death of another elephant they would have to understand what death is and I don't think they know what that is.

I think human and animal alike know what death is. How they know it is beyond my understanding. And because it is, doesn't mean I don't feel the sting of death. I just think it's the same for many creatures.

 

[Vanessa Schnautz]

I don't know about tortoises... but when my rabbit lost it's bonded partner, she grieved. Yes, I'm using the human term grieve, because I don't know what the term is in the rabbit mind. Her expressions of joy stopped. Rabbits run and jump and twist mid-air to express joy. She expressed no joy for a month, ignored me, turned her back to me (a rabbit's body language of shunning), stopped rushing up to me for petting, and didn't move around much. She was sad at the loss of her companion. Rabbits are difficult to bond, because they attack other rabbits out of fear. But once they are bonded, they snuggle, groom each other, and seek each other out. When my rabbits are extremely relaxed and content, they do an exaggerated flop when they lie on their sides. Both ears forward mean I'm paying attention. One ear back means only half paying attention. Both ears back at 45 degrees means anger and attack. Same with tail at 45 degrees. I could go on. So why not tortoises? I haven't owned a tortoise yet... that's happening in Spring. But I do believe that all animals are capable of feeling different degrees of so-called happiness, contentment, stress, fear, anger, sadness, and probably more emotions that we are aware of that are relative to their existence and world, because we who are at the top of the food chain, only know and understand our human emotions. So yes - it is anthropomorphic to say that animals feel happiness/sadness, and it is anthropomorphic to say that they don't. It is anthropomorphic - because we are human, not animals, so we only know human emotions. We are only capable of posing our human concepts onto animals. If we were tortoises, we might be telling a different story. But we are not tortoises, so we will never truly know, and thus it is acceptable to apply the next best thing - anthropomorphism.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

could it be an elephant feeling sad over the death of another simply them worrying about the survival of the group? Maybe they stay around for days because they don't understand why the elephant is not moving? for them to feel "sad" over the death of another elephant they would have to understand what death is and I don't think they know what that is.

I've read stories of elephants holding a grudge against certain humans and retaliating years later. That would show emotion.
However, I don't think that a tortoise gets sad. Confused, maybe.

 

[Speedy-1]

I don't think they get sad like people do. They take whatever happens to them and never think "why me?" They may feel cold and wet when stuck in the rain but the moment the sun comes out, they forget about how they were feeling previously. I think they live in the moment. When kept in less than ideal conditions, they may react in ways that make them look sad or angry to us, but it is somewhat different from how we feel. When Charlie drags the lawn furniture all over the yard, he seems like he is on a rampage - I can't know what makes him do that. They are motivated to do things that feel good, like bask in the sun and munch on grass; that is part of their survival instinct.

I think you have summed it up pretty well ! D. H. Lawrence wrote a poem , probably 100 years or so ago ! It was about "self pity" yet another human emotion !

Self Pity
I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.