CBD for a DT?

[GusBus]

Vetrijec.

All of the following is constructive criticism. Please don't get your feelings hurt and leave. If no one tells you what is wrong, then you won't know what to fix to help your tortoise, and that is my only goal. Helping you and your tortoise.

I see several things that could all be the cause of your problems, or at least contributing factors.
1. The enclosure is far too small. Species half this size need at least 4x8 feet. Your tortoise needs more than that. Why does enclosure size matter? When their enclosure is too small and they can't walk enough, it makes things in the GI tract get backed up, which can cause lethargy and lack of appetite. Small enclosures also seem to send some tortoises into a sort of "depression" for lack of a better term. He needs more space.
2. That basking bulb looks like a mercury vapor bulb. Is it? If yes, that might be your problem. Some of those make no UV after a few months, which should not be a problem since your tortoise gets outside and has other indoor UV. If it is making the correct amount of UV, then it is too much in combination with your other UV tube. Some MVBs make WAY too much UV, and it can cause photokeratitis, which will cause lethargy and lack of appetite.
3. How are you measuring the temp under the basking bulb? The little disc off to the side stuck to the wall is not the way to do it. This tortoise's carapace looks like it was burned previously in years passed. You need to get a digital thermometer that records the lows and the highs, set it on its back on top of a block of wood or a brick or something to make it tortoise shell height, and let it bake directly under the bulb for an hour or more. This will tell you the temperature at tortoise shell height, and then you can adjust the fixture up or down to get the correct temperature.
4. 10am to 5 pm isn't even long enough to be a short winter day for a CA DT. The "sun" needs to be up for at least 12-13 hours a day, unless you are trying to tell your tortoise it is brumation time. 7 hours of daylight will cause lethargy and lack of appetite. Set the basking bulb light timer for 6:30 am to 7:30 pm, or something similar that suits you.
5. You need more ambient light. Think how bright it is in the CA desert in the day time. You have a dim UV bulb on for 3 hours, and a dim basking bulb on for 7 hours. This tortoise thinks its a cloudy short winter day. My ambient lighting is so bright that I can't tell if my UV tube is on or off unless I bend down and look up at the tube. Add some simple efficient LED strips or bulbs in the 5000-6500K color range. Set them on the same 12-13 hour timer at the basking bulb.
6. Not related to your tortoise's health issues, but that lamp fixture is not safe or suitable. You need a ceramic based fixture, and the lamp needs to be hung from overhead. Those bakelite black plastic fixtures are a safety hazard when used in this way. They aren't meant to be on all day every day and they frequently short out. Get the right fixture at Home Depot for about $13, and hang it from over head. Those clamps ALWAYS fail eventually and are not safe to use. I remove the clamps and use the metal hanger that comes with it instead. I also drape the cord in such a way that if the metal hanger were to fail, the cord would hold up the fixture and prevent a fire.
7. Let's move outdoors: That enclosure looks great, BUT... its in the wrong area. A tortoise enclosure needs to be in a sunny area, unless you live in Phoenix AZ, and then shade all day is preferable because its 118 degrees outside. DTs need sunshine. They need to be able to bask first thing in the morning to warm up to operating temperature, and they need to be able to move in and out of the sun all day to maintain the correct operating temperature. If its not sunny until noon, then this is not a suitable place for a tortoise enclosure. Ideally, there will be somewhere in the enclosure all day long from sun up to sun down where the tort can get direct sunshine. Shade it also important, but they must have sun.
8. Have you identified and verified the safety of each and every plant in that lush beautiful garden enclosure? Many people mistakenly believe that tortoises won't eat toxic plants. Sometimes they do choose not to, but other times they do. Some plants poison them slowly over a long period of time, insidiously shutting down their organs, while other plants kill them quickly. I've seen both happen. People will sometimes say "Well they have survived for million of years without our help, so I think they know what to eat and what not to eat..." Sure they do, with their native plants in their native ranges, but even in the wild 300 die for every one that makes it to maturity. Do some of those that didn't make it die from eating toxic plants? I don't know, but its certainly possible. In captivity with all of our decorative plants from all over the globe, as well as introduced invasive plants, their are all sorts of toxic plants that our tortoises might get exposed to.

Any or all of this might be causing your problem. See why I complain about most tortoise vets? Did any of them ask about or evaluate any of the things I just mentioned? Most of them probably don't even know about the things I just mentioned. They attempt to treat the symptoms they are presented with, but they don't spend time looking for the CAUSE of the symptoms. It does no good to treat symptoms if the cause of the problem has not been identified and eliminated.

Much for you to think about. Questions are welcome. Argue with any of this. Ask for more explanation on anything that seems wrong or unclear. I hope we can save your tortoise.

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I need and thank you for being so thorough. I’m grateful. I’m definitely not going nowhere I have to get this tortoise better! He was so mistreated before us and I don’t want him to stay on that path so I’ll do anything. And I just feel terrible for him so I’ll do whatever I have to do.

I do have a couple of questions - how big should his enclosure be? He is around 5 lbs. would doubling it suffice?

It’s not a mercury lamp but just an ambient light. The basking light is ceramic. I’ll be sure to update both bulbs just in case. What bulbs do you recommend? I can go back and look at your link that you provided in the past but just want to make sure for a DT.

Do you have a digital thermometer brand that you like? I will place it in the right spot to test where it works best for him. So should the temp at his shell be 95-100??

I’ll change the lighting times and add additional ambient light and Ceramic based fixtures. I’ll look for these at Home Depot.

As for the outdoor enclosure, I understand about the sun. Unfortunately, the only spot sunny is the front yard in the mornings and the backyard in the afternoon. Perhaps I will make a small enclosure out front for him to bask first thing in the morning for next summer. I will also pull up all the plants for next summer as well. Our fall temps will start soon and he won’t be outside at all in a few weeks.

Thank you again!

 

[Tom]

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I need and thank you for being so thorough. I’m grateful. I’m definitely not going nowhere I have to get this tortoise better! He was so mistreated before us and I don’t want him to stay on that path so I’ll do anything. And I just feel terrible for him so I’ll do whatever I have to do.

I do have a couple of questions - how big should his enclosure be? He is around 5 lbs. would doubling it suffice?

It’s not a mercury lamp but just an ambient light. The basking light is ceramic. I’ll be sure to update both bulbs just in case. What bulbs do you recommend? I can go back and look at your link that you provided in the past but just want to make sure for a DT.

Do you have a digital thermometer brand that you like? I will place it in the right spot to test where it works best for him. So should the temp at his shell be 95-100??

I’ll change the lighting times and add additional ambient light and Ceramic based fixtures. I’ll look for these at Home Depot.

As for the outdoor enclosure, I understand about the sun. Unfortunately, the only spot sunny is the front yard in the mornings and the backyard in the afternoon. Perhaps I will make a small enclosure out front for him to bask first thing in the morning for next summer. I will also pull up all the plants for next summer as well. Our fall temps will start soon and he won’t be outside at all in a few weeks.

Thank you again!

Whew! I'm glad I didn't offend you and scare you off. That happens sometimes.

We've got a terminology misunderstanding:
Ambient light is just general lighting and can come for any light source. There is no ", "ambient bulb", or I suppose one could argue that any bulb is an ambient bulb. In any case, you need a regular incandescent flood bulb for basking. No halogens. No spot bulbs. No colored bulbs for day or night. Usuallly 65 watts is a good starting point. In a large enclosure with cool room temps and a large tortoise, you might need 100 or 150 watts. Your thermometer will be your guide.

I used to get my thermometers at Home Depot, but the price suddenly jumped from $12 to $25 over night. No thank you. Now I get them on Amazon for $12. Look for the Accu-Rite or Therm-Pro brands. Either will work. Like this:


Yes, the temperature at tortoise shell height directly under the flood bulb in an indoor enclosure should be around 95-100. If its only 92 in the morning and then gets to 101 by the heat of the day, that is fine.

About the enclosure size: It needs to be large. Most people have this species in warm climate near their native range, and simply give them the run of the whole back yard. That is what they need. Can't do that where you are, so how big does it need to be? The bigger the better. Can you convert a whole room? Could you do 4x12'? Go as big as you can indoors.

 

[GusBus]

Whew! I'm glad I didn't offend you and scare you off. That happens sometimes.

We've got a terminology misunderstanding:
Ambient light is just general lighting and can come for any light source. There is no ", "ambient bulb", or I suppose one could argue that any bulb is an ambient bulb. In any case, you need a regular incandescent flood bulb for basking. No halogens. No spot bulbs. No colored bulbs for day or night. Usuallly 65 watts is a good starting point. In a large enclosure with cool room temps and a large tortoise, you might need 100 or 150 watts. Your thermometer will be your guide.

I used to get my thermometers at Home Depot, but the price suddenly jumped from $12 to $25 over night. No thank you. Now I get them on Amazon for $12. Look for the Accu-Rite or Therm-Pro brands. Either will work. Like this:
View attachment 361076

Yes, the temperature at tortoise shell height directly under the flood bulb in an indoor enclosure should be around 95-100. If its only 92 in the morning and then gets to 101 by the heat of the day, that is fine.

About the enclosure size: It needs to be large. Most people have this species in warm climate near their native range, and simply give them the run of the whole back yard. That is what they need. Can't do that where you are, so how big does it need to be? The bigger the better. Can you convert a whole room? Could you do 4x12'? Go as big as you can indoors.

Thank you for all this info, I really appreciate it.

I hear you about Gus living in Colorado. This is not ideal. We rescued him from someone we knew who was housing him in poor conditions so we took him out of good faith. Turns out, not sure we are doing much better given his health status but at least trying and love him very much and will do what is necessary.

I will continue to upgrade his enclosure and see if we can get this poor guy turned around. We will double his enclosure this weekend and see if we can get him better in the next couple of months. If we do get him back in good health it might be good to consider having someone adopt him in AZ or CA who we trust will take good care of him and give him the best possible life in a state that he is naturally from. If you know of anyone we can research or that you trust please let us know for the future. In the meantime, we will keep doing what we need to do and I will keep you posted and reach back out with more questions if need be. Thank you again Tom!

 

[Tom]

Thank you for all this info, I really appreciate it.

I hear you about Gus living in Colorado. This is not ideal. We rescued him from someone we knew who was housing him in poor conditions so we took him out of good faith. Turns out, not sure we are doing much better given his health status but at least trying and love him very much and will do what is necessary.

I will continue to upgrade his enclosure and see if we can get this poor guy turned around. We will double his enclosure this weekend and see if we can get him better in the next couple of months. If we do get him back in good health it might be good to consider having someone adopt him in AZ or CA who we trust will take good care of him and give him the best possible life in a state that he is naturally from. If you know of anyone we can research or that you trust please let us know for the future. In the meantime, we will keep doing what we need to do and I will keep you posted and reach back out with more questions if need be. Thank you again Tom!

You are welcome for sure.

Incidentally, I grew up in Southern CA fairly close to the coast. At one point in my teen years I worked at a pet shop in Hermosa Beach that was very close to the ocean. People who lived near there were constantly bringing in sick DTs. To re-hab them, we would simply move them inland to my buddy's house in Whittier. Most of them didn't even need medication. I concluded that the cold clammy weather simply was not suitable for this species.

Sad to have to give up your tortoise, but a large outdoor sunny enclosure in a warm climate might be just the ticket to save him.

 

[GusBus]

Hi Tom,

Can you give me an example of the ceramic light fixtures? Home Depot didn’t have any. I am able to find ceramic bases for the lights but not 100% comprehending. Can you send me a picture? Thank you again! In the meantime, keep us in mind for a good CA home. Breaks my heart but in the end I just want what’s best for him.

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom,

Can you give me an example of the ceramic light fixtures? Home Depot didn’t have any. I am able to find ceramic bases for the lights but not 100% comprehending. Can you send me a picture? Thank you again! In the meantime, keep us in mind for a good CA home. Breaks my heart but in the end I just want what’s best for him.

Here are two. Home Depot has them. The person you asked just didn't know what you were asking for. Its commonly called a "clamp lamp". Its a ceramic based fixture with an aluminum dome. Remove the clamp, remove the little guard wire thingies, and hang it securely with the little metal hanger that is attached to it.

Woods 300-Watt 6 ft. 18/2 SJTW Incandescent Brooder Clamp Work Light and Heat Lamp with 10 in. Reflector and Bulb Guard 166 - The Home Depot

Illuminate your garage, workshop or shed with the help of this Brooder Clamp Lamp with Bulb Guard and Reflector from Woods.

www.homedepot.com

 

[GusBus]

Thank you Very much!