Cherry head hatchling color question

[Uwabamireptiles]

Hey all, I have a question about different cherry head tortoise hatchling coloring I’ve seen. I am possibly interested in getting a cherry head project going and I have seen more tradition looking hatchlings for sale and I’ve also seen hatchlings available that were a lot lighter with almost no dark pigment on their carapace. Do they all end up looking similar or is that something that could be worked on in a selective breeding project? What does everyone look for when they are selecting hatchlings? All the adults I’ve seen look similar so I am curious what the consensus is.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I don’t have the first clue on selective breeding, but I do believe it’s possible when it comes to traits like this. I’m mainly commenting to follow this thread, you’ve peaked my curiosity

 

[RandyTortoise]

Hey all, I have a question about different cherry head tortoise hatchling coloring I’ve seen. I am possibly interested in getting a cherry head project going and I have seen more tradition looking hatchlings for sale and I’ve also seen hatchlings available that were a lot lighter with almost no dark pigment on their carapace. Do they all end up looking similar or is that something that could be worked on in a selective breeding project? What does everyone look for when they are selecting hatchlings? All the adults I’ve seen look similar so I am curious what the consensus is.

My view, and others may have a different experience. If you want to breed for brighter, darker or other minor color variations in red footed tortoises, they are all the same but (the same as AKC dogs) each carries more or less of certain traits you want to achieve in your hatchlings.

Not all adults look similar. They look similar because 95% of the ones you see were bred not for particular traits, but because they were bred.

If you want to do this, you need to scour the market and shows for attractive adults and pay what is necessary to get what you want. If a hatchling has a trait you want, it could very well disappear 5 or 10 years later. So you have to find adults that have the trait, and that trait stuck with them as they aged and breed those only. So don’t look for attractive hatchlings as that may be a gamble in terms of the future but also a vast amount of time.

 

[Uwabamireptiles]

My view, and others may have a different experience. If you want to breed for brighter, darker or other minor color variations in red footed tortoises, they are all the same but (the same as AKC dogs) each carries more or less of certain traits you want to achieve in your hatchlings.

Not all adults look similar. They look similar because 95% of the ones you see were bred not for particular traits, but because they were bred.

If you want to do this, you need to scour the market and shows for attractive adults and pay what is necessary to get what you want. If a hatchling has a trait you want, it could very well disappear 5 or 10 years later. So you have to find adults that have the trait, and that trait stuck with them as they aged and breed those only. So don’t look for attractive hatchlings as that may be a gamble in terms of the future but also a vast amount of time.

Thanks for the in depth response. My keeping background is mostly with snakes, with a heavier focus on carpet pythons and selective breeding is huge in carpets so I can’t help but take that approach in all of my projects. Being new to the tortoise side of things, I’m just curious what others have experienced with lighter hatchlings or hatchlings with specific traits and them passing those genes on. Which you touched on and seeing adults does make the most sense. That’s great advice.

With being new to the tortoise side of the hobby, I’m still learning who has what and need to see who has what projects. The tortoise side of things definitely seems to not post as much about projects as the snake side does from what I’ve seen haha.

 

[RandyTortoise]

Thanks for the in depth response. My keeping background is mostly with snakes, with a heavier focus on carpet pythons and selective breeding is huge in carpets so I can’t help but take that approach in all of my projects. Being new to the tortoise side of things, I’m just curious what others have experienced with lighter hatchlings or hatchlings with specific traits and them passing those genes on. Which you touched on and seeing adults does make the most sense. That’s great advice.

With being new to the tortoise side of the hobby, I’m still learning who has what and need to see who has what projects. The tortoise side of things definitely seems to not post as much about projects as the snake side does from what I’ve seen haha.

The biggest issue is that for tortoises, many species are just a challenge to find or breed for variation. There are many color variations, albinism, color differences in water turtles (think red eared sliders and many other species). But with tortoises the natural and accidental variations are harder to come by.

The best tortoises for this, as you point out, are red and yellow footed tortoises as many can be bright as hell or dull and pale and everything in between. In addition, people pay a premium for the color variations. There are albinos in a few tort species (sulcatas etc) but in my opinion they can be pretty ugly and a premium is high but the market is small.

So Indian stars, pattern variations in radiated and leopards are possible, but really the fun and faster breeding would be with red or yellow foots.

 

[Anastasia 22]

I have a Redfoot and a cherry head RF. RF is really bright. Cherry head had a bad start, so his shell will never be perfect unfortunately.
All my tortoises are not my hobbies nor projects. I just love them. And believe me or not, they look the most beautiful tortoises in the world to me.
Just my 5 cents to the conversation.

 

[Uwabamireptiles]

The biggest issue is that for tortoises, many species are just a challenge to find or breed for variation. There are many color variations, albinism, color differences in water turtles (think red eared sliders and many other species). But with tortoises the natural and accidental variations are harder to come by.

The best tortoises for this, as you point out, are red and yellow footed tortoises as many can be bright as hell or dull and pale and everything in between. In addition, people pay a premium for the color variations. There are albinos in a few tort species (sulcatas etc) but in my opinion they can be pretty ugly and a premium is high but the market is small.

So Indian stars, pattern variations in radiated and leopards are possible, but really the fun and faster breeding would be with red or yellow foots.

That’s what I was thinking, the red foots seem to have a lot of variation between all the different geological phenotypes as well as variation within each region. Seeing different cherry heads that I have seen, it definitely opens up the possibility of selective breeding for whatever you want to focus on.

Has anyone on the forum selectively bred for certain traits they would want to talk about?

 

[RandyTortoise]

That’s what I was thinking, the red foots seem to have a lot of variation between all the different geological phenotypes as well as variation within each region. Seeing different cherry heads that I have seen, it definitely opens up the possibility of selective breeding for whatever you want to focus on.

Has anyone on the forum selectively bred for certain traits they would want to talk about?

As an example. Here are some photos of my leopard tortoises. All are different patterns and colors.

There are two sub-species of leopards. Pardalis pardalis (which have been well said to get much larger and are darker than their lighter shelled and slightly smaller brethren the Babcocki.

At present, new studies indicate that these are the same species and they are not different genetically at all.

So hatchlings are sold as the cheaper (Babcocks) which are lighter in color like mine below that are very light. Then hatchlings that are “true” pardalis are sold at a big premium as they get larger etc. you literally cannot tell by looking at a hatchling what it is; big or small or how it will turn out.

So below is a “true” dark pardalis. Which, by the way is an older tortoise and didn’t grow as large as the smaller Babcocks.

Here is my point. If people want leopards with very light shelled colors and they DO and will pay a premium for that, you could breed for that traight and find other cool variations in larger leopard that people may not want to keep anymore.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

As far as I know, most breeders here tend to keep regional lineages clean and not to mix localities.

Gene pool of captive redfooted tortoises is pretty much a mess already (as less responsible breeders mix different localities of redfoots freely trying to get more marbling, different plastron and shell shades and brighter spots/heads coloration). Unfortunately, such breeding often results in unforeseen side effects: high risks of cancers, congenital defects etc. (I guess, you are more than aware of this).

Sincerely, I would prefer to have a "normal" healthy animal than one with stunning colors but doomed to have tumors in a couple of years.

 

[RandyTortoise]

As far as I know, most breeders here tend to keep regional lineages clean and not to mix localities.

Gene pool of captive redfooted tortoises is pretty much a mess already (as less responsible breeders mix different localities of redfoots freely trying to get more marbling, different plastron and shell shades and brighter spots/heads coloration). Unfortunately, such breeding often results in unforeseen side effects: high risks of cancers, congenital defects etc. (I guess, you are more than aware of this).

Sincerely, I would prefer to have a "normal" healthy animal than one with stunning colors but doomed to have tumors in a couple of years.

Well said! I just took at look at morph market in red foots and there are a lot of quite ugly cross breeds that to your point probably wont be healthy and shouldn’t be here to begin with.

 

[Uwabamireptiles]

I’m sure there are plenty of crosses between the different localities. They are all the same as of now right? But there’s an unofficial stance that there should be 3-5 subspecies/species with more research? Like I said before, I’m still new to the tortoise side of things and learning. I’ve already learned a ton from this forum.

Just to clarify, selective breeding doesn’t automatically mean crossing different localities to get desired looks. That definitely can be a way to do it but that isn’t what I’m asking about here. I’m curious about expanding on natural variability within the Brazilian locality cherryheads. Every species should have a degree of variability within their locality. I have just seen some lighter cherry head hatchlings that caught my eye and was curious if that was through selective breeding or just something that has popped out. And if starting with animals like that would give me more of a chance to produce more like that or do those lighter animals just hatch out lighter but always end up looking the same as all the others as adults.

I understand y’alls position on not crossing localities that can and probably will be different species or subspecies one day. It’s exactly the same in carpet pythons and I have been in that part of the hobby for two decades. So I understand the importance of keeping things pure.

 

[jaizei]

I have just seen some lighter cherry head hatchlings that caught my eye and was curious if that was through selective breeding or just something that has popped out.

It's a little of both. Often times, initially they just pop up and then are selectively bred.

And if starting with animals like that would give me more of a chance to produce more like that or do those lighter animals just hatch out lighter but always end up looking the same as all the others as adults.

If you're referring to hypos, the adults are lighter than normal adults.

 

[Uwabamireptiles]

It's a little of both. Often times, initially they just pop up and then are selectively bred.



If you're referring to hypos, the adults are lighter than normal adults.

That’s what I was thinking. I know most things pop up then get worked on from there. Sounds like the best course is to get animals and work from there with them.