Digestion problem?

[mitchellr]

Hi all, i got question to ask you here, my radiated hasnt pooed in 2 days and i got this weird mucus-like "droppings" today in his torto table. He eats alot and doesnt seem to have illness, does this normal? I might be too paranoid but better to ask you radiated experts than clouded in uncertainty.

 

[Yvonne G]

A lot of mucous from the cloaca SOMETIMES signifies the tortoise has an overload of protozoa-type parasites, and needs to be de-wormed with Flagyl.

 

[coastal]

Ditto, and if that is the case you will want to replace all the substrate to while you are at it. Also scrub the tortoise good and remove all poop during treatment.

 

[mitchellr]

Ditto, and if that is the case you will want to replace all the substrate to while you are at it. Also scrub the tortoise good and remove all poop during treatment.

What do you mean by scrubbing? I asked a friend and he told me to deworm using Panacur. Does this sound familiar to you?

 

[coastal]

Panacur won't treat what this is looking like, you need Flagyl. You need to remove any food/poop from the plastron and keep clean so not to reinfect during treatment. Both drugs are safe to use together but you will need a vet to get them and dose them out for you.

 

[bouaboua]

Lots good information. Thank you for sharing and I will closely follow this thread. Best Luck to your Radiated.

 

[mitchellr]

Guys, is it true that too much calcium may made my radiated cant poo? I give calcium daily to him.

My radiated is releasing out a jelly like thing when he's being soaked. It's transparent odorless jelly, whats this??

Im little bit worried now......

 

[coastal]

Yes, you can calcify the insides. Keep the powders minimal and very light depending on diet you may not need any at all. If this is calcium OD the animal will not be active eating, and will hide and sleep more then normal. If you are concerned you should seek a vet, at this point its all speculation still.

 

[ascott]

If it were me...I would back off of the calcium supplement and increase your warm water soaks....I would also offer wetter type foods to help increase hydration (some squash, a piece or two of cucumber and some romaine or red/green leaf lettuce)....

What is the diet like that you offer to him "normally"? Do you offer a UVA/UVB bulb for the daytime hours? If you offer artificial uv ray lighting then you can likely decrease the calcium supplements (maybe once every couple of weeks should be fine if you are offering the uv rays)...

In the picture you have here I do not see anything that would worry me about parasites....and treating a tort for heavy parasite load not only kills off the bad stuff but also the good stuff---so making sure the tort is heavily loaded would be important...and if you have a poo that seems a bit off that is not, to me, enough of a reason to deworm the tort...

Especially if the tort has normal healthy appetite and is behaving good and exercising and is business as usual...

 

[mitchellr]

I think i might have give him calcium OD since he has access to natural sunlight at LEAST 4 hours a week. Most of the time i let him roam in the garden for the whole day if weather permits.

I already stop calcium for now and this morning he defecated. A LOT. Lol.

So it suppose to be ok right? Still im wondering why he released jelly like substance tho..

---

Oh and anyway thank you all for the replies. Really appreciate it.

 

[ascott]

Still im wondering why he released jelly like substance tho..

You say he is outside a bit each week....what does he have to graze on? Do you know if he ate anything in the last 2 weeks that he has not consumed before and may affect the poo...?

 

[Testudoresearch]

Yes, you can calcify the insides. Keep the powders minimal and very light depending on diet you may not need any at all. If this is calcium OD

This is not accurate. There is zero practical chance of 'overdosing' on calcium alone in the manner described here. It is not biologically possible. It can be conclusively ruled out.

Almost all captive animals are on far lower Ca intakes than wild specimens to begin with - which is why regular supplementation is a very good idea. Wild Ca levels are typically very high indeed. Higher than is commonly realised. The calcium-phosphorus ratio is also typically higher than usually cited, in the range 10:1 to 14:1 in wild Testudo diets, for example. A captive diet rarely exceeds 3:1, even with fairly heavy supplementation.

In addition, for soft-tissue mineralization to occur, exceptionally high levels of oral - direct - D3 dosing is required. Calcium alone cannot do that, and neither can exposure to natural UVB (it self-limits). The only cases in the literature of soft-tissue mineralization involve direct consumption of oral vitamin D3 or D2 sources, sometimes in the form of cat/dog foods and "monkey chow". Those cases mostly date back many years to the late 60's and early 70's when such inappropriate diets were widely used. A few more recent cases involved keepers grossly over-supplementing with oral D3 'Solar Drops' and similar products.

Excess consumed calcium is merely excreted under normal circumstances.

You need to look elsewhere for the solution. As suggested above, those symptoms are consistent with a flagellate problem. So, screening a sample under the microscope is essential. They are very evident if present. Your specialist veterinarian should be consulted.

There are also several other possibilities. Some ciliate protozoan organisms can produce similar issues if present at high concentrations, and indeed, anything which may be irritating the gut lining may also be a possibility. Again, a sample should be checked. It is also worth running a worm ova flotation count.

It is also a fact that you should not, in a healthy tortoise on a suitable diet, see any protozoan problems in the first place. You do need to look at the diet very carefully. For this species, very high fiber (30%+) of low digestibility and low energy content. Excess carbohydrate intakes can and will contribute to unhealthy gut motility and a greatly enhanced risk factor for protozoan proliferation.

If repeated protozoan problems occur, this can suggest a compromised immune system (once dietary causes have been rules out). A full investigation is then required to determine if this is so.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Andy,
Thank you for stating clearly, the calcium myth.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

In regard to this tortoise, a fecal needs to be done by a trained vet.

 

[ascott]

There is zero practical chance of 'overdosing' on calcium alone in the manner described here. It is not biologically possible. It can be conclusively ruled out.

As a person that has been in other professions that are not of scientific nature whatsoever...but indeed made up entirely of "practical chance" the statements made here are only those made up of the almighty...there is not way to conclusively ruled out nor is there ever, in life, zero chance....

I am not here to debate, of which I will not, your scientific views....but I will stand firm that all that happens is not able to be explained only in scientific terms....

And on a side note; if we want the torts of this world to remain in perfect "natural" balance...then don't keep torts in a forced captive environment....don't remove them from their wild lands simply for human entertainment....then, they will be allowed to graze and roam the world as it was designed to be used...in my humble opinion that is....also, no grocery store food, nor back yard garden--even sprinkled with all the man made "supplements" will ever come close to the original design....thank you.

 

[zenoandthetortoise]

"I am not here to debate, of which I will not, your scientific views....but I will stand firm that all that happens is not able to be explained only in scientific terms...."

I'm not asking you to debate what you don't want to debate, but I do have a question. What other terms than scientific would be valid to describe an issue of toxicology?

 

[ascott]

What other terms than scientific would be valid

I believe that there are many other variables in life that are not at all able to be explained by us mere humans...I do believe that scientific terms are a wonderful variable in life. I also believe that there are things that happen that can not be explained nor proven by simple scientific theories....

For example;

'overdosing' on calcium alone in the manner described here. It is not biologically possible. It can be conclusively ruled out.

which is why regular supplementation is a very good idea.

I see completely the basis for these statements...I sincerely do. This is where I think differently...we, us simple humans, only know a little bit of what occurs on this planet and in this world and we know this minute bit of information based on what we have bothered to pay attention to and do so with our very limited active time here as a species that has logged very few years of information (and I relate this realm of time based on our ability and history of "keeping track" of things of interest vs the realm of time, of which we really don't know much about--nothing proven but more again, based only on what we as a species have kept record of...we can not answer questions of creation, and the reason the sky is blue for example is explained merely in our only known terms--science.

I am a person that believes that science is truly interesting, yet it is only an actual variable in this vast realm of reality...we know nothing truly of what offered those variables for us...does that make sense?

Therefore, when a statement is made of such exact science I take it in and then I realize there have been many times in life that if actions in life actually followed only the scientific rules....they simply could not have been....so, I become very sensitive to "absolute" statements and that is all.

I value our scientific words because we as humans have a non stop drive to understand all that is around us and have a need to put a word/theme/method for why things are what they are---and I simply then say, yes---science is a lovely thing....but the truly lovely things in this "life" are the things that happen that can never truly be, without question absolute every time and in the same manner every time...

So, when someone states that you can over supplement a tort...I agree and do so because we only can measure what we think is appropriate based on what someone states as science...right. Then there are those times that science goes out the door and life does what life finds correct and appropriate regardless of whether we can explain and categorize that moment....

These are beliefs that I have in life and so when I say I do not intend to debate, I mean that with the greatest respect...some folks are more apt to move through life with the security that they know what they know based on scientific reasons...then there are those that take in that scientific information and find it fascinating but then also look out past that scientific realm and wonder who or what then perhaps placed those scientific finds/variables into motion to ever begin with....that source is to me the reason things happen that can not yet be explained and I am not certain ever can be proven in scientific terms....

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

So I must ask, in all due respect, Ascott, are you making some veiled statement to your belief in a “higher power" that we as humans can never understand? And that this “higher power" is responsible for things we, as mere humans, will never, nor should we try to, understand. I ask sincerely, because it would appear to me this is what you are alluding to without actually saying it…

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

Panacur is a very broad spectrum anti-PARASITIC... Which includes many protozoan spp.
Flagyl is Metronidazole, very commonly used for giardiasis, crypto, and other lower intestinal Protozoa and bacteria in small animals and reptiles.

Panacur is Fenbendazole, and without going into the biochemistry, is closely related to Metronidazole. Fenbendazole will treat giardiasis and other intestinal Protozoa.
Chelonian doseage (well documented, so I'm not dolling out medical advice) is 50-100mg/kg.

If you would like me to calculate a dosage for your animal, I'm happy to do so, based on well published data.

 

[edwardbo]

I am sorry to say I find it funny how people are so easily offended by cold hard fact.....ascot ,you have a saying at the bottom of your post;when one tugs at nature he finds it attached to the rest of the world .yes, and there is a reason it is attached,why are you offended to be explained the attachment ? It is not an insult.i think some people feel safe in there magical thinking ,looking for the extremes of the bell curve to keep a fantasy .......no one knows why a baby picks that moment to be born (yet).it is easy to think its because of a zodiacal influence.but is that true?

---

Peps ,remember,first do no harm.