General and Jackson update

[lazybfarm]

Hey everyone, I’ve been really busy for the past few months, moving to new house. So I haven’t posted much about General and Jackson. Here are a few recent pics. They are growing like crazy, eating a lot and looking pretty good , I think . They are both over 50 lbs now, I have not weighed them in few months, it is not as easy as it used to be
They are getting pretty friendly and like for me to scratch their shells or spray them with water . They are a reall pleasure to be around, I love them.

 

[wellington]

Looking good. Too bad there isn't any grass and weeds in their area, be cheaper to feed them.
Where is Decatur? I know of one in Illinois.

 

[TammyJ]

It's just the pair of them in the enclosure? There is so much information here about pairs of tortoises - not to keep them in pairs, and why. But they are certainly beautiful.

 

[lazybfarm]

They have been together all of their lives , they are rarely ever not side by side, they sleep together, eat together , they do everything together . Sometimes it all depends on how much effort YOU are willing to put in to it . I see that they are not lacking for anything . They live inside during the winter , see my post- Indoor room for my large torts - they have a room that is 28’x20’ that is heated to 88 degrees and maintains 95- 100% humidity, they are growing very well . They eat moistened Mazuri tortoise chow with bell pepper and cactus pads chopped up in it every day .They will come running for it. They also have at all times turnip greens, mustard greens, , collard greens, Romain lettuce, orchard grass hay etc. Now that it is spring , I am supplementing their diet with dandelions and weeds . Between my 2 Aldabras and my sulcata , Baxter ( 21lbs) They eat 3-25 lb bags of mazuri per month .
And ,no, the sulcata and Aldabras are never together.
Aldabras get along quite well together, some will tell you that they don’t get along together. I am showing you that it is not necessarily always the case. These 2 are hatch mates and are most likely siblings . They have been together all of their lives. (3 1/2 years )They are content with each other . Maybe as they get more mature that may change, but for now , they are happy .
The pics are in their winter enclosures,inside and outside. They have plenty of grass and weeds in their summer enclosure, where they will be going into in about a month

 

[wellington]

Aldabra are one species that's more possible then some or most others where a pair might work, big might. They both look to be growing evenly, which can be a good sign they aren't stressed. However, just so you have a better understanding of bullying, everything you said they do together, is considered bullying. Because of this, just be sure you keep a closer eye on them. The fact they were hatch mates, and been together for 3 years doesn't matter. They have no idea they are possibly siblings, nor do they care.
If you end up with one of each sex you will have to separate them or the male will try to breed the female to death.
Just be aware.

 

[lazybfarm]

There is no way that I could keep a closer eye on them than I already do. I can watch them 24/7. How did you get your information that they don’t care to be together? Every pic I have ever seen of Aldabras in the wild or in captivity they’re not alone. Seems like a lot of tortoise “experts “ who have never seen them do anything that suggest they are in danger of killing each other, believe that they are going to kill each other. Maybe parroting what other perceived experts say is why there is a lot of tortoise disinformation out there. When I show you the reality of their existence, maybe you should consider that . Maybe a male will try to breed a female to death, but that is not unique to tortoises
Please look at the dozens of posts where people are showing Aldabras living together in harmony, and the “experts” saying you can’t do that . Who do you believe ? The experts or your lying eyes ? I have studied everything aldabra I can get my hands on. I have raised 2 beautiful, perfect babies. I know what they need , and I give it to them.
Aldabras are not sulcatas, and they do not act the same.
I have both.
Please post evidence of 2 Aldabras who have lived together all of their lives , trying to kill each other. I would like to see it.

 

[lazybfarm]

Here they are this morning. Which one do you think is doing the bullying ?

 

[Tom]

There is no way that I could keep a closer eye on them than I already do. I can watch them 24/7. How did you get your information that they don’t care to be together? Every pic I have ever seen of Aldabras in the wild or in captivity they’re not alone. Seems like a lot of tortoise “experts “ who have never seen them do anything that suggest they are in danger of killing each other, believe that they are going to kill each other. Maybe parroting what other perceived experts say is why there is a lot of tortoise disinformation out there. When I show you the reality of their existence, maybe you should consider that . Maybe a male will try to breed a female to death, but that is not unique to tortoises
Please look at the dozens of posts where people are showing Aldabras living together in harmony, and the “experts” saying you can’t do that . Who do you believe ? The experts or your lying eyes ? I have studied everything aldabra I can get my hands on. I have raised 2 beautiful, perfect babies. I know what they need , and I give it to them.
Aldabras are not sulcatas, and they do not act the same.
I have both.
Please post evidence of 2 Aldabras who have lived together all of their lives , trying to kill each other. I would like to see it.

You misunderstand, and you are making a mistake because of it. The concepts we are referring to apply to all sentient living things, even primitive things like flatworms and insects. Your tortoises may not ever overtly try to "kill each other", but they are both living with terrible chronic stress and that is not good for them. You don't understand what you are looking at with "your lying eyes". We are not talking about fighting, ramming and biting.

From the care sheet that you have chosen to disregard:
"9. Pairs: Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. Groups of juveniles can sometimes work, but not pairs. Group dynamics are different than pair dynamics. Whenever there are just two, one will be dominant and the other submissive. The dominant is clearly telling the submissive to "GET OUT!" of my territory, but the submissive can't. This can be seen in animals as primitive as flatworms. Most people do not see the signs in tortoises. Our tortoises don't have the ability to growl. They don't have lips to snarl, or hackles to raise, yet they show their hostility just the same, but in their own way. Following each other, cuddling in a shelter, sleeping face to face, sitting on the food pile... All of these are blatant tortoise aggression. People are looking for biting, ramming and other overt signs. Those overt behaviors do happen in some cases, but more often the two tortoises are just forced to live in each other's space in a state of constant chronic stress, while the owner thinks everything is just fine because they aren't actively attacking and biting each other. It is NOT fine. Keep tortoises alone, which is totally fine, or in groups of three or more, which can sometimes lead to other problems down the road as they all begin to mature. Tortoises do not want or need company. Some species tolerate company better than others, but none should be kept in pairs. For some breeding projects, it is advantageous to raise them up in groups, but never pairs. If you only want two tortoises, that is great. Get two separate enclosures. And two outdoor enclosures for fair weather too."

This forum is full of pics and stories of tortoises that were kept in pairs by people who didn't understand why it was a problem, and now do. There have been several of these threads just recently.

About the pics you mentioned: Yes, it is common to see pics of GROUPS of Aldabras together in the wild or in captivity. Are you assuming that is because they like each other? Or might it be because that is where the only shade, or food, or water is, and they simply tolerate each other because they need whatever the resource is? In the case of captive tortoises, what choice do they have? You see the same sort of pics with Galapagos tortoises, yet Galaps are one of the most combative, territorial, scrappy species there is, rivaling Russian tortoises in their desire for combat and dominance. I think Galaps might actually be the MOST aggressive tortoise species, yet almost every picture you see of them will show multiple tortoises in it.

And another thing, some Mazuri is okay, but that much Mazuri every day is not a good thing. 50 pounds at three years old is an extremely fast growth rate. I would consider that too fast and potentially detrimental, and brought on because of the food. They should be eating mostly grass, in one form or another, once they are out of the baby stage. I use hay, hay pellets, and as much real grass as I can get my hands on for this purpose. Weeds, leaves, and opuntia are all great additions for bulk and variety. Their outdoor enclosures better be HUGE and full of elevation changes and obstacles, or orthopedic problems are likely for them.

We aren't saying these things to upset or insult you. We are saying these things because we care about the welfare of your tortoises, and also helping you to understand what is going on better. The picture you showed in the post above this pic is a classic example of "crowding". This clearly demonstrates the tortoise concept of "mad dogging". Imagine if you were sitting in your Lazyboy enjoying a cold brew watching the game, and I came into the room with my chest all puffed up, walked over to you, and sat down right in front of you, right in your face like what those tortoises are doing. Just right up in your space staring right into your eyes. How would that make you feel? You'd either want to punch me in face, or you'd want to get up and leave the area and get away from my obviously hostile behavior. Right? Whatever actions you may take in response to my actions, you would obviously be feeling very uncomfortable about what I was doing and why, would you not? Now imagine the two of us were locked in a cell together 24/7 and could not get away from each other and I kept doing that to you? What would happen? We would either fight constantly, or it would just be a very uncomfortable living situation and we would both be stressed by it. Whichever one of us proved to be physically dominant would sit there stewing about how much they hate the other one, and the subordinant one would be constantly worried about when the next hostile gesture would be coming. It would be a horrific existence, would it not? Maybe the two individuals locked in a cell would both have mild mannered personalities and not hate each other, as most humans would. It would still be uncomfortable having that other person in your space all day every day, wouldn't it? Imagine the jostling for position over food, resting and sleeping spots, even if punches were never thrown.

I'm not parroting someone else's words. Animal behavior is my career, my hobby, and my life's work. Its all I do all day every day. Went to college and got a degree in it many years ago. Surely you must understand that someone who has done nothing but study, work with, modify, and experiment with animal behavior all day every day for decades in every capacity of their life, must have figured out a thing or two. I don't go on the internet telling people that keeping tortoise in pairs is a problem because I want to pi$$ people off. I do it because it IS a problem, and because I care about tortoises and tortoise keepers. Perhaps if you consider my qualifications and motivations, this pill will be a little easier to swallow?

 

[lazybfarm]

that is my point believe me when I say, I am not upset in the least. I knew Tom would chime in with his all knowing knowledge of Aldabras
please show me the evidence of which you are stating is fact. Please show a pic of an Aldabra in the wild living by himself. Then explain to me how you know that if they had a choice, that they would live a solitary life. Because they never do .

 

[lazybfarm]

If we grew up together , you would know to not sit in MY lazyboy .
And congratulations Tom, you just discovered how all animals in captivity must adapt to their surroundings, be it horses , hippos or tortoises .

 

[wellington]

Not sure why you think you are the only one that knows and have studied/read as much as possible about Aldabras. I have been here since 2011 and fell in love with them shortly after joining. I read every word Aldabraman had posted and read anything and everything I could find on them, taking into account it was likely old outdated wrong info. But I guess you will stand firm thinking you know it all. I just hope your tortoises don't pay the price.
You comparing the wild space to your tortoises space is like comparing apples to water melons! You don't even have any sight barriers that I can see.
Groups can work, not usually pairs. Even in groups you will have fighting, but one won't take all the heat, it will be spread out amongst more of them. Even then, one may need to be removed. There also should be multiple hides, water and food stations and sight barriers.
I hope you can open your mind just a bit and realize everyone's interest is in the best life for your tortoises.
Good luck

 

[lazybfarm]

If we lived in a cell together would we snuggle up together at night, if we could be apart, I don’t think so. So why do the tortoises sleep together when they could be separate ?
Is one of them making the other snuggle up to him ? That is absurd. They like being together. Or, maybe your college professor didn’t know everything. I am sure there is a lot about these animals that we would like to know, but may never know because of incorrect or mis read interpretations off what is happening. I can see with my own eyes that my tortoises are happy and they get along great, why you experts can’t accept that is beyond me .

 

[wellington]

Back at ya, why you can't understand why you may be wrong!
@Yvonne G had two males that lived together for a lot of years. The big difference between yours and what she has posted about hers, is the fact they didn't sleep together and they didn't constantly follow each other around. They lived their life as if they were a single tortoise for the most part.
Maybe yours will eventually do the same, maybe not. For now they are not.
At least you do have one of the least combative species you are doing this with.

 

[wellington]

I don't know if @ALDABRAMAN will add his thoughts or knowledge in on this but won't hurt to see if he will.
I'm also not sure if he has ever housed just a pair or knows anyone personally that has.

 

[Tom]

Tom, you just discovered how all animals in captivity must adapt to their surroundings, be it horses , hippos or tortoises .

Horses and hippos are mammalian social animals that have clear and easy to understand hierarchies in wild or captive groups. Tortoises are not.

If we grew up together , you would know to not sit in MY lazyboy .

EXACTLY my point! You see the implied threat there? Assuming you were physically larger and stronger than me, and assuming you had a more dominant type of personality, do you think I would enjoy living under the threat of violence should I have the audacity to sit in YOUR Lazyboy? If given the choice, don't you think I would leave the first chance I got after you threatened me for sitting in YOUR chair? The weaker of your two tortoises doesn't enjoy that either, but he can't leave because you have built a suitably safe enclosure that is escape proof.

Please show a pic of an Aldabra in the wild living by himself. Then explain to me how you know that if they had a choice, that they would live a solitary life. Because they never do .

There are 1000s of pictures with only one Aldabra tortoise in the wild. I never said anything about choosing to live a solitary life. GROUPS are NOT the same thing as PAIRS. Also, in the wild, or in a suitably large enough captive enclosure, which I have only seen a few times, a tortoise that is feeling intimidated by another tortoise can simple move to the other side of the group and put other individuals between themselves and the aggressor, or they can leave the area if they choose. Living in a small enclosure as a pair removes both of these options.

If we lived in a cell together would we snuggle up together at night...

In some cases mammals will do that for warmth. Not so with reptiles. Also, I can assure you the two primates who did not like each other would NOT sleep snuggled up together. I used to work at a facility with 35 chimps and 7 orangutans. They did not sleep with their enemies.

So why do the tortoises sleep together when they could be separate ?
Is one of them making the other snuggle up to him ?

Its called crowding. It is intimidation intended to drive the competitor out of its territory. Ever seen a liquor store owner following a suspicious character around their store? Do you think they are doing this because they like the person and want to cuddle? They make it clear that they are watching, and without saying a word, the ne'er do well knows that the store owner wants them to leave.

I can see with my own eyes that my tortoises are happy and they get along great...

If anything in this thread is absurd, it is this statement. This is called anthropomorphism. Please take a moment to look up that word and understand its meaning, and implications to this discussion.

In summary: No, my college professors did not know everything. Nor do I. But we do know some things, and might it be possible, just maybe, that people who have studied and LIVED the subject matter for decades, might know more than someone whose sole basis for arguing is three years of experience with two animals? Is that possible?

Here is the problem: I once did not know better and made the mistake that you are now making. I made it more than once. I, and my animals, suffered the consequences of my ignorance, and I learned from the experience. I try to help others learn from that experience too, without having to suffer the consequences of making the mistakes I made. Some people refuse to learn this way, and must learn the hard way, at the expense of the animals that they care about. I try to help those who will listen, but I can't help those who won't. One way or another, in time, you will learn that what I am explaining here is the truth. The only question is what will it cost you?

 

[lazybfarm]

Exactly I get it that if they are 2 males , that when they get older they may not want to be around each other , or if they just do not get along then I will separate them. . That is just not the case now
I have raised every kind of animal on my farm , from cattle, horses, draft horses, mules, chickens, peacocks, I have a 20,000 gallon koi pond , I have 1200 gallons of saltwater reef aquariums, I have a scarlet macaw and a double yellow head Amazon that I have had for 34 years. My point is, animal husbandry has been my life since I was a kid, so I am not ignorant to any of the things you guys are saying. I am just wanting to know what exactly you guys think will happen to my tortoises? if you say that them sleeping together is bullying, well, ,
I have to wonder where in the world you would get such a strange idea, obviously that is not what is happening. I see no indication that 1 or the other is in charge in any way.
Tom, what consequences did your Aldabras suffer from your mistakes?
Now you all know at least 1 pair of Aldabras being kept by somebody

 

[Tom]

I have raised every kind of animal on my farm , from cattle, horses, draft horses, mules, chickens, peacocks, I have a 20,000 gallon koi pond , I have 1200 gallons of saltwater reef aquariums, I have a scarlet macaw and a double yellow head Amazon that I have had for 34 years.

All social animals. Every single one of them. Do you have any experience with solitary animals? That is a good lot of animal experience, so you should be able to understand the concepts being explained here.

This problem is not about the sexes. It is true of any combination.

You know I don't keep Aldabras because my climate isn't suitable for them. You also know that I know lots of other people who keep them here and elsewhere. I'm not a stranger to the care of the island giants. Aldabras are not any different than any other tortoise species when it comes to the pair thing. I did keep several other species in pairs many years ago before I knew any better, and it was always a problem.

This idea is not strange. It is basic biology. What is strange is your reluctance to accept reality, and that you think that somehow your two tortoises are different than every other living thing on the planet.

You are not the only person doing this. I know of others doing it too. While most of the time they survive, it is still not "good" for them. If your enclosure was 1.5 acres and heavily planted with lots of visual barriers, it would be less of a problem, but that isn't the case, is it?

 

[lazybfarm]

How could you guys let your tortoises fight each other to the point of catastrophe without separating them ? Seems like the logical thing to do if they are fighting.
I see it all over the country, most people don’t really get what bullying even is . How do you guys communicate with your torts? How do you know that bullying is not what they want? I guess it’s your anthropomorphism kicking in

 

[wellington]

How could you guys let your tortoises fight each other to the point of catastrophe without separating them ? Seems like the logical thing to do if they are fighting.
I see it all over the country, most people don’t really get what bullying even is . How do you guys communicate with your torts? How do you know that bullying is not what they want? I guess it’s your anthropomorphism kicking in

You have what is obvious bullying but you don't separate them. You actually think they want to be bullied.
(How do you know that bullying is not what they want?)
Who said no one doesn't separate their torts should they fight?
Hopefully and luckily most see the signs before an actual fight. Some don't and the less aggressive tortoise gets hurt or a chunk bitten out of him. Just had a thread last week where this happened.
Thinking an animal wants to be stressed and bullied is insane and if knowingly left in those conditions is animal abuse!

 

[Tom]

How could you guys let your tortoises fight each other to the point of catastrophe without separating them ? Seems like the logical thing to do if they are fighting.
I see it all over the country, most people don’t really get what bullying even is . How do you guys communicate with your torts? How do you know that bullying is not what they want? I guess it’s your anthropomorphism kicking in

Now you are trolling. I'm out.