Hibernating a 1 yr old Hermann

[Sunshine]

Hello all,

I've just been back from the vet and my little Herbie is healthy which is great news ;-) She gave met the details of a reptile vet who I will see next time. I called him to see when would be a good time to come and he mentioned that I should come at the end of September so that we can dicuss hibernating Herbie. He also said I should buy a small fridge! I am now terrified as I thought little Herbie wouldn't hibernate for the first few years.

Can anyone offer some basic advice on hibernating little ones?
Lenght of time? Conditions?
If you put them in a fridge how do you know if they're still alive??

Thankyou for your much anticipated advice!
Helen & Herbie

 

[GBtortoises]

Whether or not you hibernate your Hermann's tortoise is entirely up to you and what you are comfortable in doing. There is always a certain degree of risk involved in hibernating tortoises in captivity. While it is true that tortoises of your species do hibernate in the wild, there is no absolute reason to do so in captivity. I keep Hermann's tortoises of every age (including other Northern Mediterranean species). I hibernate my adults in order to produce better breeding results in the spring. I do not hibernate any young tortoises until they reach about 4" in length simply because there isn't a need to do so. I prolonge the potential risk involved in hibernation until they are bigger and easier to monitor. But having said that, it is also easier to prepare and monitor a single animal or a small number of animals for hibernation as opposed to dozens or more.

It's a good idea to have a seperate refrigerator to hibernate your tortoise in rather than using one that is also being used for family foods. This is mainly due to the tortoise needing a relatively stable temperature and humidity level while in hibernation. This can't be achieved if the door is being opened every few minutes! During hibernation indoors mine are maintained at temperatures between 39-42 degrees with 40 degrees being considered ideal by most. I try to keep humidity levels at around 65%. Too often tortoises are kept much too dry during hibernation and succumb to dehydration. You would most like need to keep an open pan or dish of water in the refrigerator to keep humdity up.
Tortoises don't cease moving while in hibernation. Their senses are fully functional, just much, much slower. They will respond to touch, temperature change and light but in a very slow manner. They will even attempt to dig deeper or come to the top should temperatures become colder or warmer in relation to the location that they are in. That is one important reason that temperatures should be kept a constant as possible while in hibernation.
As far as hibernation mediums you're likely to get several different answers. Different people have used different materials successfully. Over the years I've used leaves, moss, straw, packing peanuts, newspaper all with varying success. I prefer organic material because they hold moisture better than other mediums I've used. I hibernate the majority of my adult Hermann's outdoors naturally and find most of them covered with mud when they emerge from hibernation, which indicates very moist ground. They are also much heavier and more alert than those hibernated indoors. Because of that I believe that a moist hibernation medium is important to them maintaining proper hydration while in hibernation. But it should also be emphasized that there is a fine line between moisture and dampness so again, there is a risk involved.

My suggestion is to find multiple sources, both on this site and from other sources about the pros and cons of hibernation and techniques and determine what you are comfortable with doing.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Whether or not you hibernate your Hermann's tortoise is entirely up to you and what you are comfortable in doing. There is always a certain degree of risk involved in hibernating tortoises in captivity. While it is true that tortoises of your species do hibernate in the wild, there is no absolute reason to do so in captivity. I keep Hermann's tortoises of every age (including other Northern Mediterranean species). I hibernate my adults in order to produce better breeding results in the spring. I do not hibernate any young tortoises until they reach about 4" in length simply because there isn't a need to do so. I prolonge the potential risk involved in hibernation until they are bigger and easier to monitor. But having said that, it is also easier to prepare and monitor a single animal or a small number of animals for hibernation as opposed to dozens or more.

It's a good idea to have a seperate refrigerator to hibernate your tortoise in rather than using one that is also being used for family foods. This is mainly due to the tortoise needing a relatively stable temperature and humidity level while in hibernation. This can't be achieved if the door is being opened every few minutes! During hibernation indoors mine are maintained at temperatures between 39-42 degrees with 40 degrees being considered ideal by most. I try to keep humidity levels at around 65%. Too often tortoises are kept much too dry during hibernation and succumb to dehydration. You would most like need to keep an open pan or dish of water in the refrigerator to keep humdity up.
Tortoises don't cease moving while in hibernation. Their senses are fully functional, just much, much slower. They will respond to touch, temperature change and light but in a very slow manner. They will even attempt to dig deeper or come to the top should temperatures become colder or warmer in relation to the location that they are in. That is one important reason that temperatures should be kept a constant as possible while in hibernation.
As far as hibernation mediums you're likely to get several different answers. Different people have used different materials successfully. Over the years I've used leaves, moss, straw, packing peanuts, newspaper all with varying success. I prefer organic material because they hold moisture better than other mediums I've used. I hibernate the majority of my adult Hermann's outdoors naturally and find most of them covered with mud when they emerge from hibernation, which indicates very moist ground. They are also much heavier and more alert than those hibernated indoors. Because of that I believe that a moist hibernation medium is important to them maintaining proper hydration while in hibernation. But it should also be emphasized that there is a fine line between moisture and dampness so again, there is a risk involved.

My suggestion is to find multiple sources, both on this site and from other sources about the pros and cons of hibernation and techniques and determine what you are comfortable with doing.

Is hibernation essential for breeding?

 

[tortoisenerd]

No it is not, although some people say that coming out of hibernation is a "trigger" for their torts to start breeding. No reason you can't have healthy breeding torts without it though. Doing hibernation improperly has a lot more chance for problems than not hibernating. I think the risks outweigh the benefits for me and my tort personally. If you want info on hibernating, you will be able to find plenty here, but don't think that you have to do it. I would not recommend hibernating a tort the first year you've had it nor one that has had recent health issues, parasites or hasn't been tested, lack of weight gain, etc. Many people and vets are old school in their tort keeping such that they feed stuff we now think is bad, think you have to hibernate, don't know that pyramiding is mostly due to lack of humidity, etc. I never only take advice from one person, no matter how much of an expert they are supposed to be. Best to get lots of info and make an educated decision on your own.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

No it is not, although some people say that coming out of hibernation is a "trigger" for their torts to start breeding. No reason you can't have healthy breeding torts without it though. Doing hibernation improperly has a lot more chance for problems than not hibernating. I think the risks outweigh the benefits for me and my tort personally. If you want info on hibernating, you will be able to find plenty here, but don't think that you have to do it. I would not recommend hibernating a tort the first year you've had it nor one that has had recent health issues, parasites or hasn't been tested, lack of weight gain, etc. Many people and vets are old school in their tort keeping such that they feed stuff we now think is bad, think you have to hibernate, don't know that pyramiding is mostly due to lack of humidity, etc. I never only take advice from one person, no matter how much of an expert they are supposed to be. Best to get lots of info and make an educated decision on your own.

OK, thanx

 

[Sunshine]

Thankyou all for your words of wisdom ;-)

I actually saw my reptile vet and we're having a check up again at the beginning of October. I've also been invited to a tortoise hibernation party which I'm going to to learn how to do it and if Herbie will be safe ;-)

I really appreciate your advise
Helen & Herbie

 

[GBtortoises]

Hibernation is not necessary to stimulate breeding. Temperature changes and light duration determine activity levels and breeding, not necessarily the act of hibernation. Hibernation is necessary in the wild for Northern species in order to escape long periods of cold weather and lack of food.

I do definitely see a major difference in my breeding activity levels between individuals that have been hibernated and those that haven't. At least here at my place. Those that have been hibernated, especially naturally outdoors, absolutely, positively all mate and very soon after awaking. They also lay two or three clutches of eggs with all or nearly all being viable.

Tortoises that I have not hibernated for one reason or another usually go at breeding with a lackluster attempt, especially the females. Those same females will usually produce one, maybe two clutches of eggs with about 50-75% being viable.

The problem with not hibernating a young dveloping tortoise is that it will be kept warm and active year round which will in turn cause it to grow twice as large or more than a tortoise born at the same time that is hibernated. This often results in accelerated growth and more.

But yes, there can also be risks involved when hibernating too.

But yes, there are risks involved in hibernation.

 

[Ozric]

Hi all

if you do decide to hibernate Herbie then a small fridge can work well. This is the method I use. I hibernate smaller and younger ones for a shorter time as some say this is safer for them. My opinion is that its not worth it for the tortoise to hibernate less than 8 weeks so I don't recommend anything shorter than that. Of course if we have reason to think somethng has gone wrong then the tortoise can be woken at any time.

I now use garden soil in the boxes I place the tortoises in. Last year was the first time I used this and I think it reduced weight loss which is one thing we can easily keep an eye on if the tortoise is hibernated in the fridge. The animal can be simply taken out and weighed, checked over. Often the tortoise will move a little if it is taken out and this means its still a living creature!

When hibernation does go wrong, it is most often near the beginning of the hibernation period (which probably means the keeper got soemthing wrong) or after the end of hibernation. When the tortoise wakes up it needs to take in water and start to eat soon afterwards. How soon depends on how large and what reserves it has.

Careful preparation is a must if you decide to hibernate and like other posters here I would recommend getting more information from different places. In the end, its your decision of course. In the past some tortoises were hibernated for far too long - this hapenned because keepers were in places where there are much longer winters than in the mediterranean. In those days there were no UV lamps to keep them going all winter which we have now, so people didn't have any choice.

Some keepers hibernate because they feel its the natural thing their tortoise would do. I think most breeders say that hibernation increases breeding sucess.

Best wishes, whatever you decide.

 

[Orpexo]

I am also keeping a 1+ year old tortoise and am currently getting info about hibernation, in order to do it right since it will be a first one for me and my boettgeri.
I ll expose my plan here so the experienced members can critizes it and correct me if it is needed.

The tortoise is currently in a habitat with a 'natural' substrate. Here is a picture of the hide my tortoise prefers:
(under the pink rock)
What cannot be seen on the picture is that just under the hide there is a platic box in the substrate. There are a few dead leafs in the hide.

Early december I will give a peice of pealed orange to koopa, as an early chrismas gift (she never got fruits so far) and probably last real meal. I read it helps against constipation, and tortoise should hibernate empty stomach so it is good right?
Starting that day i ll adjust the heater of the room to decreases the temperature gradually over two weaks. There are a few plants in the habitat that my tortoise can still eat if she wants.
Once it is cold enough i would probably not see it anymore as she would have gone to hibernate in the hide.

At this point I could probably just move the whole habitat to the basement. I decided instead to take the plastic box out of the habitat and place it in a peirced shoe box for the following reasons:
- I ll be hable to clean the habitat
- I ll be able to arrange the plants of the habitat the way i want and make it grow
- I ll be able to weight the hibernating box without direct manipulation of the tortoise
- I ll be able to move the box from the basement to the fridge if temperatures goes too low.

I will add in the box a thermometer, hygrometer and unless you guys tell me it is a bad idea, a wet sponde, so the substrate doesnt dries up. I ll fill the left space with straw, not too much on top to let a bit of air go through.
I would check temperature, hygrometry, moist and weight every weeks.

February or march (2-3 months of hibernation) I ll put the plastic box back in the habitat, and as much as possible gradually turn temperatures up until the tortoise wakes up.

 

[GBtortoises]

If you intend to hibernate outdoors safe hibernation not only depends upon the species of tortoise that you are keeping, it's health and it's pre-hibernation conditioning. It is also extremely important to know your local climate, including temperatures, ground condition, potential amount of rain, soil drainage and more. It's not enough to watch the weather on tv or read it in the paper, you have to know it well, very well.

Everything that Ozric has stated above is absolutely accurate.

Orpexo-I'm not sure the point of feeding your tortoise an orange before hiberation. One of the most difficult things for a Mediterranean tortoise to disgest and absorb is sugar. I doubt that citric acid will do much good for the tortoises digestive protozoa either. Both of these ingredients are found in high concentrations in most fruits, especially oranges. "Treats" are a human food association, not a tortoises. While it is true that tortoises should go into hibernation with an "empty" stomach, proper pre-hibernation conditioning can take care of this. Incidently, in the wild and when kept outdoors under natural conditions tortoises rarely hibernate on an empty stomach because they will often consume small amounts of very high fiber, dry foods such as leaves and hay. The speculation is that this actually helps them expel the bulk of previous wastes and a very small amount is retained to keep digestive protozoa active and alive throughout hibernation. I don't know if it is true or proven but I have seen my tortoises that hibernate outdoors eat leaves and dead grass right up until a few days before they go under for the winter.

Indoors if the hibernation substrate is kept at the correct moisture content or you choose to use an artificial hibernation substrate and use a seperate moisture source (container of water), there shoul be no use for a sponge to retain moisture. Keep in mind that straw (or hay) and moisture is usually a bad combination. Hay will mold very quickly if wet and straw, while moisture resistant, will also if exposed to it long enough without air flow.

If you live in an area where temperatures are below your tortoises normal activity levels for more than three-four months it might be wiser to hibernate exclusively indoors. This way you can easily control how long your tortoise will hibernate and when. Here where I live in upstate New York most of my tortoises have to be brought in by the end of September, early October and cannot go back outdoors until late April. While I do have a dozen "seasoned veterans" that have always hibernated outdoors their whole lives here, I do not feel safe allowing most of my tortoises to hibernate that long outdoors here with our long, usually severe winters.
Indoors it's easy to control their hibernation routine and check their status frequently. I recommend to people in situations like mine to bring them in, keep them awake and active throughout the fall then hibernate them later in the winter, waking them up in the spring to put them outdoors. I believe that allows them to develop a more natural routine. At least as natural as possible with human intervention!