Hibernation Yes or No

[TortNZ]

Hi All

I’m new to having a tortoise and have had my one year old for a month.
When I got Evo I took her to a vet that has experience with tortoises from when she was living and working in the UK.
She was happy with Evo’s condition but said she would not recommend to hibernate her as this can cause a lot of issues in young tortoises or at least wait till she is older.
To be honest I’m a bit freaked out to let her hibernate.
Could I please ask for your opinions.

 

[wellington]

Never recommended the first year of owning the tort whether big or small. Keeping them up the first year of owning it gives you the chance to become well acquainted with it and how well it's doing and if all seems healthy and normal. After the first year you can hibernate or not, it's up too you.
I own a Russian that I do not hibernate.

 

[Sa Ga]

Short ans....no.

Here's something I posted to another member regarding hibernation:
I just rescued my RT, Morla, this past Sept. She seemed to want to brumate this winter but I didn't let her. (She did not really want to eat and she would just crawl to a corner and want to sleep.) I kept her warm and fed so she couldn't. I just didn't want to risk it bc I didn't know what I was doing with it yet.

Then she was diagnosed in Nov w/ chronic kidney disease (due to her past poor care--which shows just how important covert things like hydration/humidity and proper diet is--and how easy it is to miss the bad effects until it's almost too late!). This likely would have killed her had I brumated her!
(Signif dehydration naturally occurs during brumation and CKD will not permit such levels of it without the kidneys poss shutting down for good.)

This led to many discussions with my vet (she is one of the Mall of America Sea Life staff vets, so she has a plethora of reptile expertise and knowledge!). I was worried Morla would be missing out or be harmed by not brumating.

But....I came to learn that brumation is actually hard on them--go fig, not eating or drinking for months, stuck cold and immobile. Remember, they don't do it because it's fun. They do it because their natural climate gets inhospitable and they HAVE to. And some simply never wake up.

It is natural but a behavior they no longer need to do if they're safe and sound in your warm house. After reading just the stories here on this forum, it just doesn't seem worth that risk.

 

[Sa Ga]

Yes, unfortunately they are very good at seeming well...until they're not. I cried at the Vet's when Morla was diagnosed because she had seemed SO healthy when I got her and I thought it was something I'd done wrong that did this to her. But the vet said something like CKD develops over a good span of time, not 5 weeks. So she was actually quite sick for a while.

It is likely that ones that didn't wake up from brumation had something hiding that took hold once in their vulnerable state. It's recommended that you do a full physical (especially bloodwork/x-rays etc) to be sure everything is ok bf you brumate.

Morla's xrays ID'd calcium deposits to the underside of her rt shoulder scute, which led to bloodwork confirming that her phosphate/calcium/uric acid levels were extremely off and that the kidneys were not working properly (the deposits are the body's way of trying to compensate for the wacky blood levels). Be warned though...such a thorough physical runs about $500. So safe brumation is also expensive! Lol

 

[Tom]

This is a matter of opinion and you'll likely get several.

Its my opinion that if a tortoise species hibernates in the wild, then we should hibernate them, correctly, in our captive enclosures too. I've always done this, including first year animals, and never had a problem. They hibernate their first year, and every year, in the wild, so I see no reason to skip it in captivity.

Having said that, you don't have to hibernate them ever. If you are freaked out about it, don't do it.

 

[Sa Ga]

This is a matter of opinion and you'll likely get several.

Its my opinion that if a tortoise species hibernates in the wild, then we should hibernate them, correctly, in our captive enclosures too. I've always done this, including first year animals, and never had a problem. They hibernate their first year, and every year, in the wild, so I see no reason to skip it in captivity.

Having said that, you don't have to hibernate them ever. If you are freaked out about it, don't do it.

But there are many things they do in the wild that they don't have to endure being in captivity. Why put them through that and risk them not waking up?

"Do correctly," of course, but clearly all can be done right (or wrong and the person doesn't know until they come upon their dead tort), and still they can die.

I'm not at all saying you're wrong, Tom. I'm just trying to understand why you believe "natural" is they way to go in this instance when there can be so much risk, esp if inadvertently done incorrectly or to a tort with a hidden issue?

 

[Tom]

But there are many things they do in the wild that they don't have to endure being in captivity. Why put them through that and risk them not waking up?

"Do correctly," of course, but clearly all can be done right (or wrong and the person doesn't know until they come upon their dead tort), and still they can die.

I'm not at all saying you're wrong, Tom. I'm just trying to understand why you believe "natural" is they way to go in this instance when there can be so much risk, esp if inadvertently done incorrectly or to a tort with a hidden issue?

I think your perception of what hibernation is, and isn't, is skewed by reading the accounts of people who have done it wrong and had problems. My perception is skewed by several decades of doing it right with many species, and not ever having a problem.

Hibernation isn't just something they endure and barely survive because of bad weather. It is NOT just a reaction to temperatures outside. It is part of an annual cycle that has occurred for millions of years for these species. Spring comes, they get active, eat, breed, and go about their business. In summer the get active in the morning and hide from the mid day heat all day until evening. Fall is much like spring, but with a slow down toward the end. Winter is a rest period. Its how they live. Its just what they do. I have no evidence that skipping hibernation and keeping them up all year does any harm, but its inarguably a break from what they have evolved to deal with.

I advocate for hibernation because I think it is beneficial, normal, and the right thing to do. I don't find it dangerous, risky, or problematic in any way. I find it to be normal, natural, useful and good for them.

 

[Yvonne G]

This is a matter of opinion and you'll likely get several.

Its my opinion that if a tortoise species hibernates in the wild, then we should hibernate them, correctly, in our captive enclosures too. I've always done this, including first year animals, and never had a problem. They hibernate their first year, and every year, in the wild, so I see no reason to skip it in captivity.

Having said that, you don't have to hibernate them ever. If you are freaked out about it, don't do it.

I may have misunderstood, but I THINK when it was said to not allow a tortoise to brumate the first year, they meant a new-to-you-tortoise their first winter with you. If you're still getting to know your tortoise and this is their first winter with you, I think it's best to keep them up so you can make sure they're healthy and in good condition for brumating.

 

[TortNZ]

Yes, I only had my tort for a month and it is my first winter with her.
Totally new to been a tortoise owner. Have done lots of reading before and after I got her to educate myself. Reading lots of topics on this forum and worried I do something wrong especially hibernating or pyramiding.
I found a tort group here in NZ but some view contradict with what is said on this forum. That’s why I asked the question.

 

[Sa Ga]

I think your perception of what hibernation is, and isn't, is skewed by reading the accounts of people who have done it wrong and had problems. My perception is skewed by several decades of doing it right with many species, and not ever having a problem.

Hibernation isn't just something they endure and barely survive because of bad weather. It is NOT just a reaction to temperatures outside. It is part of an annual cycle that has occurred for millions of years for these species. Spring comes, they get active, eat, breed, and go about their business. In summer the get active in the morning and hide from the mid day heat all day until evening. Fall is much like spring, but with a slow down toward the end. Winter is a rest period. Its how they live. Its just what they do. I have no evidence that skipping hibernation and keeping them up all year does any harm, but its inarguably a break from what they have evolved to deal with.

I advocate for hibernation because I think it is beneficial, normal, and the right thing to do. I don't find it dangerous, risky, or problematic in any way. I find it to be normal, natural, useful and good for them.

By your logic then, they should be breeding too....it's all part of the cycle you list, after all....

Ok, ok, I'm not serious....

But again, it just seems that if a person isn't an expert like you are (and I don't mean that facetiously), you admit there is significant risk if they do it wrong, correct? And you must admit "natural" though it may be, ones are lost for reasons unknown that, had they not been brumated, they still could be walking around today...

I'm just saying that all that is natural isn't always best, and if there's risk involved, why expose them to that? If it's to set a certain process in motion (like breeding), it's necessary. But if it isn't needed, what REALLY is the advantage to outweigh the risk??m

"It's natural " just isn't enough.... Part of our jobs as owners is to circumvent all the potential risks they would "naturally" face (and throwing them into a fridge and waking them up when we see fit is not natural conditions anyway).

 

[KarenSoCal]

Part of our jobs as owners is to circumvent all the potential risks they would "naturally" face (and throwing them into a fridge and waking them up when we see fit is not natural conditions anyway).

The reason some torts die is partly because their keepers did not remove much of the risks of brumation.

Outside in a burrow, temps can fluctuate wildly. high 70's by day, and 40's by night. As soon as they have a stretch of warm days, they get more active, thus using their water and food reserves. Or they eat something. Then the temps drop, they go back to sleep, and that food rots in their guts, killing them. Or they aren't quite far enough back into the burrow, and their eyeballs freeze...literally.

Or there's a big rain, and the burrow collapses or they drown. Or ants, rats, etc decide sleeping tort is a great winter feast.

This is my 3rd year brumating my CDT, Chug, in an operating fridge. By doing this correctly (it's not rocket science) I have eliminated EVERY risk listed above.

You may believe it is not "natural"...I believe I supply him with the perfect burrow.

People get caught up in the warnings we all got from our parents..."don't get in that..you'll DIE!", hence the regs about taking the doors off. Or they think of it as being locked in a coffin. We are the claustrophobics, not torts. They like it dark and tight.

I do not "throw" Chug into a fridge. I do watch the weather before waking him, again mitigating risk.

I agree with Tom...please examine your objections to fridge brumation and determine if YOUR fears are driving the negativity.

 

[Yvonne G]

I've never brumated my tortoises in the fridge, however, I have allowed them to brumate in disconnected chest type freezers. I have a couple said freezers in an old vacant house on the back of my property. I boxed the tortoises up in shredded paper in a cardboard box and put them in a freezer with a pencil across one corner so the lid didn't close tightly. There was no electricity in the old house, so the temperature inside the house would go up a bit when the sun shone and down a lot at night when it was cold enough for frost. But the freezers are insulated quite well and once the temperature inside them reached a certain place it stayed constant.

In my opinion, unless you live in your tortoise's home range you should not allow them to brumate outside. Boxing them up in shredded paper and keeping the box in a dry, cool (40F-45F), quiet place should be safe. I think the bad part about brumation is allowing your tortoise to get wet while he's in that state.

 

[mark1]

personally I worry more about the health of the ones I don't hibernate ……. if they don't act right , I bring them in the house , every year there is usually one or two ….. they usually end up being fine , when spring rolls around the hibernated ones appear to be in a healthier state , definitely much brighter colored ….. dying during hibernation has never been my experience ….. becoming sick after hibernation is something that I've experienced , I suspect they were ill going in and came out a bit further along ill …….
…..... I think knowing how they naturally hibernate is a prerequisite to being able to hibernate them , just as knowing how they naturally live during active times of the year is a prerequisite to being able to keep them …….. if you know what optimal conditions are , you can provide them , we can give them conditions to hibernate that are better than their wild counterparts usually get ……. given an extreme cold snap their wild counterparts don't have someone coming out and covering their hibernacula with a tarp ……. or are put in a constant 40 degree refrigerator ... I can't speak on artificially winding them down , never done that , I have never had a need to given the weather I get here , they wind themselves down , honestly a bit different than I've read how they are supposed to ……… I do think running down their reserves during hibernation has health benefits , I think not doing so can be unhealthy …….. I think the problem folks have with hibernating these guys is not knowing how it's done naturally , not recognizing a sick tortoise or turtle , and artificially "winding them down" ….. to artificially "wind them down" indoors in a natural manner , appears to me it would be one labor intense undertaking …….. waning daylight cycles , temperature fluctuations , seems would take some doing ……..

 

[Sa Ga]

The reason some torts die is partly because their keepers did not remove much of the risks of brumation.

Outside in a burrow, temps can fluctuate wildly. high 70's by day, and 40's by night. As soon as they have a stretch of warm days, they get more active, thus using their water and food reserves. Or they eat something. Then the temps drop, they go back to sleep, and that food rots in their guts, killing them. Or they aren't quite far enough back into the burrow, and their eyeballs freeze...literally.

Or there's a big rain, and the burrow collapses or they drown. Or ants, rats, etc decide sleeping tort is a great winter feast.

This is my 3rd year brumating my CDT, Chug, in an operating fridge. By doing this correctly (it's not rocket science) I have eliminated EVERY risk listed above.

You may believe it is not "natural"...I believe I supply him with the perfect burrow.

People get caught up in the warnings we all got from our parents..."don't get in that..you'll DIE!", hence the regs about taking the doors off. Or they think of it as being locked in a coffin. We are the claustrophobics, not torts. They like it dark and tight.

I do not "throw" Chug into a fridge. I do watch the weather before waking him, again mitigating risk.

I agree with Tom...please examine your objections to fridge brumation and determine if YOUR fears are driving the negativity.

Hmmmm...I meant no "negativity" by any of this. I merely seek a way to understand why one would take ANY risk if not necessary (ie: what actual "positivity" or benefit do you *see* from it, other than assuming it is "right?" Without empirical evidence, your "positivity" is no more grounded than my "negativity").

Ugh...that is so sad, that they die of gut rot or freezing...but I suppose that's "natural" too. Nature is tough and nature is cruel.

 

[Sa Ga]

P.S. I love closed, tight spaces and I don't fear a fridge at all. If anything, I fear the unknown and what might be missed so that when I THINK I'm doing the "right thing," it turns out I didn't.

Just recently there was a lady on here that did this several years in a row, and this year, one of her two gals didn't wake up. Since it "is not rocket science" and she'd done it times before quite successfully, I will assume the "right" things were done. And I do not doubt you make a perfect burrow for your baby, as I am sure she did too. But things happen, "right" or not...and I just want to know if there is a TRUE advantage to taking this risk.

That was all I was asking, and I meant no derision by it. Something as simple as, "i don't have any proof it's better, but it goes well and i like it," is good enough for me if that's where it's at, and it seems be.

 

[Sa Ga]

personally I worry more about the health of the ones I don't hibernate ……. if they don't act right , I bring them in the house , every year there is usually one or two ….. they usually end up being fine , when spring rolls around the hibernated ones appear to be in a healthier state , definitely much brighter colored ….. dying during hibernation has never been my experience ….. becoming sick after hibernation is something that I've experienced , I suspect they were ill going in and came out a bit further along ill …….
…..... I think knowing how they naturally hibernate is a prerequisite to being able to hibernate them , just as knowing how they naturally live during active times of the year is a prerequisite to being able to keep them …….. if you know what optimal conditions are , you can provide them , we can give them conditions to hibernate that are better than their wild counterparts usually get ……. given an extreme cold snap their wild counterparts don't have someone coming out and covering their hibernacula with a tarp ……. or are put in a constant 40 degree refrigerator ... I can't speak on artificially winding them down , never done that , I have never had a need to given the weather I get here , they wind themselves down , honestly a bit different than I've read how they are supposed to ……… I do think running down their reserves during hibernation has health benefits , I think not doing so can be unhealthy …….. I think the problem folks have with hibernating these guys is not knowing how it's done naturally , not recognizing a sick tortoise or turtle , and artificially "winding them down" ….. to artificially "wind them down" indoors in a natural manner , appears to me it would be one labor intense undertaking …….. waning daylight cycles , temperature fluctuations , seems would take some doing ……..

THANK YOU, Mark1!!! THAT was exactly what I was looking for! Not just an "I do it and I do it well," but WHY one would even consider it at all.

Your response was extremely informative, deeply appreciated, and positively voiced. It's definitely got me considering it now for any future torts I get!

??
THANK YOU!

 

[KarenSoCal]

P.S. I love closed, tight spaces and I don't fear a fridge at all. If anything, I fear the unknown and what might be missed so that when I THINK I'm doing the "right thing," it turns out I didn't.

Just recently there was a lady on here that did this several years in a row, and this year, one of her two gals didn't wake up. Since it "is not rocket science" and she'd done it times before quite successfully, I will assume the "right" things were done. And I do not doubt you make a perfect burrow for your baby, as I am sure she did too. But things happen, "right" or not...and I just want to know if there is a TRUE advantage to taking this risk.

That was all I was asking, and I meant no derision by it. Something as simple as, "i don't have any proof it's better, but it goes well and i like it," is good enough for me if that's where it's at, and it seems be.

As responsible keepers, we do try to mimic wild behaviors as best we can. Those behaviors have worked for torts for a very long time. Unfortunately, our attempts are pretty sad. We try to feed foods that are encountered in the native habitat, but can't always do it. We try to build burrows they will like, but frequently fail. We do the best we can in our given circumstances.

I don't consider it a risk to brumate a tort that does so in the wild. The leading zoos do it, so they must think it's advantageous. l think so too.

There is no way of knowing if the lady's tort would have died if it had been kept awake. In any case, what a heart wrenching discovery.

We know that brumating works well in the wild.

What we don't have is empirical evidence of possible damage due to long term denial of this basic instinct.

 

[Tom]

By your logic then, they should be breeding too....it's all part of the cycle you list, after all....

Ok, ok, I'm not serious....

But again, it just seems that if a person isn't an expert like you are (and I don't mean that facetiously), you admit there is significant risk if they do it wrong, correct? And you must admit "natural" though it may be, ones are lost for reasons unknown that, had they not been brumated, they still could be walking around today...

I'm just saying that all that is natural isn't always best, and if there's risk involved, why expose them to that? If it's to set a certain process in motion (like breeding), it's necessary. But if it isn't needed, what REALLY is the advantage to outweigh the risk??m

"It's natural " just isn't enough.... Part of our jobs as owners is to circumvent all the potential risks they would "naturally" face (and throwing them into a fridge and waking them up when we see fit is not natural conditions anyway).

Actually, I DO think they should be breeding. Captive bred babies keep the hobby going and let other people share the joy we experience with ours.

I don't see myself as an expert. Many years ago, I hibernated a tortoise for the very first time. I certainly wasn't an expert then.

I don't know what this "significant" risk you speak of is. Its a risk if you leave them outside subject to the cruel whims of Mother Nature. Doing it indoors, correctly, with the correct lead in and lead out, at the correct temperatures is not risky. They don't just mysteriously die for no reason. Not brumating them has risks too. People burn their houses down by mishandling those heat lamps all the time. If their tortoise had been brumating, it would still be alive and their house would still be intact. You seem to have this idea that hibernation is some sort of death defying act and we are just lucky if they make it through without dying. This is not the case. The stories you've read of tortoises dying during hibernation can all be explained by human error. Don't make those errors, and there is no risk of death. Look how many die from human error while they are wide awake and not brumating.

Seasonal variation is good for them. Stimulates their endocrine system. Stimulates all sorts of bodily processes that don't happen with a perpetual summer.

If you don't want to hibernate your tortoise, you don't have to. My opposition here is when people discourage other people form hibernating their tortoises because of misunderstandings about what it is and what it isn't, what it does and what it doesn't do.

 

[Sa Ga]

Actually, I DO think they should be breeding. Captive bred babies keep the hobby going and let other people share the joy we experience with ours.

I don't see myself as an expert. Many years ago, I hibernated a tortoise for the very first time. I certainly wasn't an expert then.

I don't know what this "significant" risk you speak of is. Its a risk if you leave them outside subject to the cruel whims of Mother Nature. Doing it indoors, correctly, with the correct lead in and lead out, at the correct temperatures is not risky. They don't just mysteriously die for no reason. Not brumating them has risks too. People burn their houses down by mishandling those heat lamps all the time. If their tortoise had been brumating, it would still be alive and their house would still be intact. You seem to have this idea that hibernation is some sort of death defying act and we are just lucky if they make it through without dying. This is not the case. The stories you've read of tortoises dying during hibernation can all be explained by human error. Don't make those errors, and there is no risk of death. Look how many die from human error while they are wide awake and not brumating.

Seasonal variation is good for them. Stimulates their endocrine system. Stimulates all sorts of bodily processes that don't happen with a perpetual summer.

If you don't want to hibernate your tortoise, you don't have to. My opposition here is when people discourage other people form hibernating their tortoises because of misunderstandings about what it is and what it isn't, what it does and what it doesn't do.

That was very informative, thank you. ?

Please note, I was never arguing that one SHOULDN'T do it; I was just seeking an understanding of WHY one should, period. "It's natural" doesn't cut it. If that were the only reason to do it, then they SHOULD be left outside (within reasonable climates) to let nature take its course by your own logic.

I don't really see heat lamps as an analogous risk to brumation, but as you yourself say....it's due to human error that brumation tragedies (and probably house fires) occur.

What we need is someone to brumate half a clutch (when they're ready) and not brumate the other half. Do that over several years. See if indeed there is a health diffr in the two groups. That would seriously be useful AND interesting!

Tom, you have a million and one torts....what do you think?

 

[Sa Ga]

P.S. Don't you think breeding should be reserved though for people who really know what they're doing--and can responsibly care for the offspring until they are sold?