Horsfield won't hibernate

[Devnull]

Hi all,
We rescued a male horsfield tortoise about 18 months ago, however on the advice of our vets didn't hibernate him last year as when he was brought in as a rescue he had pinworm and had lost some weight due to this. This year is therefore our first time and we're using the fridge method due to unpredictable UK weather. We did the last feed mid December then allowed him to expell that over around a week, then gradually started bringing his temperature down. We brought it down to around 10'c and he was obviously slowing down quite a lot. On 22/12/2021 we weighed him at 800g and put him in a box with roughly his own depth of sterilised topsoil and put the box in a wine cooler fridge we have with a temperature range of 5'c - 15'c, on the lowest setting. We have an external probe thermometer going into the box and this has shown that the box is between 5 and 6'c as expected. We've been checking him daily (just opening the door and letting the box get some air), however we've noticed he hasn't fully gone to sleep yet (as of this morning, 30/12/2021)?? He's slowed down completely, and apart from burying himself a little into the substrate after being put in, he hasn't really moved anywhere, however his head is slightly out of his shell and he opens his eyes and moves very slowly if disturbed (obviously we are trying to minimize this). Sometimes he has his eyes open when he's checked (i.e. as soon as he's brought out). We were expecting him to sleep like he does normally, head completely in shell etc. and be unresponsive during hibernation.

Is this to be expected?? How long should it take from going in the fridge to completely sleeping? We followed the steps as advised by our vet, and we assumed it would be just a case of him nodding off that night and that would be it (obviously bar the daily checks and weekly weighing) until wake up time. We haven't spoken to the vet again since just with it being the Xmas break etc. thought it would be useful to get some info from other owners first before potentially worrying unnecessarily. He's been in almost a week now at 5-6'c. Temperature did creep up to 7, but stabilized back down again when I put some large bottles of water in to help with this.

He weighed 800g when put in and I weighed him again yesterday and he was still 800g, so hasn't lost any weight.

Have checked temperature with a secondary thermometer to make sure the readings are accurate and they are give or take a degree.

Any help appreciated.

(Edit) we don't know his exact age as he was a rescue, but estimated to be around 5 years. He's currently 800g.

 

[Lyn W]

Hi and welcome,
My tort isn't a hibernating species so I don't know what a hibernating tort looks like but it could be he is in a state of brumation which as I understand isn't a deep sleep. It may be worth using the search facility to find out more until someone experienced with hibernation comes along.
Other than that I can't really help but I will tag a few people who can @Tom, @Yvonne @ZenHerper

Can you post pics of your tort? - it may help.

 

[Lyn W]

It seems that most of us have been given old and incorrect care information for our torts in the UK so, in case you haven't already found it, this is the most up to date caresheet for all Mediterranean species which you'll find very useful.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Devnull]

Thank you, I will have a look for some further information on brumation.

Here is a pic I have of him out of his enclosure and next to my hand, which should hopefully give a good idea of size etc. He lives in his indoor enclosure unless weather is suitable outdoors (uk), in which case he lives in an outdoor enclosure, this was simply whilst I was transferring him between the two one day and took the opportunity to take a few pics/videos.

 

[Devnull]

This is his hibernation setup. Fridge set to 5, however we've moved box slightly closer to the cooling unit inside to bring the temperature a little cooler there (advised by the vet who we managed to speak with briefly today - said to drop it to around 3/4'c if possible, but absolutely no lower). The top thermometer is a probe which is sitting inside the box itself.

We were using a cardboard box originally however he dug a hole through the side of that on the first day, so we switched to a plastic one with large holes drilled in the top for ventilation.

The light in the fridge is always off (door is dark glass and room is dark), so it's always dark, just switched it on to get a photo.

I should have mentioned previously, he does have pyramiding, but unfortunately that was present when he came to us.

 

[ZenHerper]

Sorry, I don't fridge reptiles... @Tom

 

[Tom]

Hi all,
We rescued a male horsfield tortoise about 18 months ago, however on the advice of our vets didn't hibernate him last year as when he was brought in as a rescue he had pinworm and had lost some weight due to this. This year is therefore our first time and we're using the fridge method due to unpredictable UK weather. We did the last feed mid December then allowed him to expell that over around a week, then gradually started bringing his temperature down. We brought it down to around 10'c and he was obviously slowing down quite a lot. On 22/12/2021 we weighed him at 800g and put him in a box with roughly his own depth of sterilised topsoil and put the box in a wine cooler fridge we have with a temperature range of 5'c - 15'c, on the lowest setting. We have an external probe thermometer going into the box and this has shown that the box is between 5 and 6'c as expected. We've been checking him daily (just opening the door and letting the box get some air), however we've noticed he hasn't fully gone to sleep yet (as of this morning, 30/12/2021)?? He's slowed down completely, and apart from burying himself a little into the substrate after being put in, he hasn't really moved anywhere, however his head is slightly out of his shell and he opens his eyes and moves very slowly if disturbed (obviously we are trying to minimize this). Sometimes he has his eyes open when he's checked (i.e. as soon as he's brought out). We were expecting him to sleep like he does normally, head completely in shell etc. and be unresponsive during hibernation.

Is this to be expected?? How long should it take from going in the fridge to completely sleeping? We followed the steps as advised by our vet, and we assumed it would be just a case of him nodding off that night and that would be it (obviously bar the daily checks and weekly weighing) until wake up time. We haven't spoken to the vet again since just with it being the Xmas break etc. thought it would be useful to get some info from other owners first before potentially worrying unnecessarily. He's been in almost a week now at 5-6'c. Temperature did creep up to 7, but stabilized back down again when I put some large bottles of water in to help with this.

He weighed 800g when put in and I weighed him again yesterday and he was still 800g, so hasn't lost any weight.

Have checked temperature with a secondary thermometer to make sure the readings are accurate and they are give or take a degree.

Any help appreciated.

(Edit) we don't know his exact age as he was a rescue, but estimated to be around 5 years. He's currently 800g.

This is all a judgement call and there are many variables to consider, but here are my thoughts and observations upon reading your posts.

1. You moved from eating and warm temps to brumation, much too fast. You gave the last meal in mid December and then he was cold and in the hibernacula on December 22? That's only a week, and this is very concerning. This is the main factor that leads me to my recommendations which will come later. I stop feeding around the end of October or the beginning of Novmber, depending on the weather. I keep temps warm and light cycles up to normal for at least two weeks after the last feeding. I soak daily or every other day during these last two warm weeks. This is to allow them to empty out their gut. After two full weeks of warm temps and no food, I gradually begin cooling the temps and shortening the days, while still soaking every other day. This process takes me another two to three weeks. They are usually down to brumation temps by the first week of December, and will then go into their fridge, where I leave Russians at around 4C until around March when I begin gradually warming them back up and soaking every other day for about two weeks before they are back up to normal temps. I watch their behavior and re-introduce food when I see them basking and behaving more normally. Some of them are ready to eat within a few days of waking, while others take a little longer. All are eating again within a couple of weeks.
2. Soil should never be used as tortoise substrate in indoor enclosures, and certainly not in closed small brumation containers. Soil is made from composted yard waste. It could be something safe and inert like non-toxic composted leaves and clippings. Or it could be made from oleander and azalea clippings, mixed with lawn grass clippings that were recently sprayed with toxic yard chemicals. There is no way to know. Never use soil. The manufacturers and sellers do not intend for their product to be used as bedding for animals, and do nothing to make sure it is safe for such a purpose. Composted oleander and azaleas will do no harm if spread around your garden plants or mixed in to your garden soil or used for potting plants, and that is what bought-in-a-bag soil is for.
3. I agree with your vet that 4C is ideal, but 5-6 is pretty darn close and shouldn't be a problem.
4. The daily disturbance might be a problem. They are not unconscious. I don't bother mine once they are down. I monitor the temps at least twice a day every day, but I don't disturb the animals by checking in on them any more than once a week or twice a month, and less than that in mid brumation. I'm most observant of them when they first go down and when they are about to come back up.
5. Most vets know very little about the intricacies of tortoise care. Even some of the vets that keep tortoises are still following the old wrong advice of the past and don't know any better than anyone else. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. Use caution with vet advice.

Given the short time frame for your tortoise to empty its gut, it is very likely there is still food in there. This might be why the tortoise is so restless and refuses to go down. It wasn't ready for the cold yet and "the season" changed much too fast. I think you should warm him back up over the next few days by adjusting the fridge thermostat up a few degrees per day, and then a room temp soak in very shallow water once the tortoise is back up to your cool room temp. Then turn the basking lamp on for 10-12 hours a day, and let the tort bask and warm up at will. Take a few days to get the enclosure completely back up to normal operating temperatures, and go from there. Soak daily for a week or two, once warmer basking temps are being reached. This will help move any food through the gut and ensure good hydration too.

It takes at least 5-7 days for food to move through their gut. If you see poop in the soak water sooner than a few days after the tortoise's first feeding, you will know you dodged a potentially fatal bullet. You can try to brumate again next year, and we can help you with tips for the transition in to and out of brumation at that time.

Questions are welcome!

 

[Devnull]

Hi Tom,
Thank you very much for the comprehensive reply, first of all my apologies, I'd mistyped, it was mid-November when we stopped feeding, not December. We kept the temperature at normal basking temp for about a week to 10 days to allow food to pass through (he passed a few times whilst soaking and then no more after around 5 days) and then started lowering very slightly each day over the next couple of weeks (light and temp) whilst still soaking regularly (but in cooler water to align with the enclosure) until lighting/heating was completely off, then opened the windows in that room whilst it was very cold outside to bring the ambient room temperature to around 9'c. Once he'd been at that temp for a few days we put him into the fridge.
I agree the daily disturbance probably isn't good, it was because I'd read the door should be opened daily to allow ventilation. When he was in cardboard I started checking to see how he was but now he's in a plastic container it is easier to "leave him be". I read online that Russians can be quite "hardy" to cold temperatures and therefore sometimes reluctant to go down unless temperatures are very low, but again we're worried about doing him more harm by lowering too much.

That's useful regarding the substrate, and not something I'd seen before if I'm honest. We'd read that topsoil was ok, but as already stated above, I think a lot of information is old on the internet. We used to use Coco coir which was great but then found it very difficult to get in anything other than very small quantities around here, so stopped and switched to topsoil. I'll look into changing that. I did sterilise the soil currently used in his hibernation box by putting it in the oven for half an hour at 100'c, but a very good point about possible chemicals.

Given the above, is it worth persisting for a week or so more? Or even longer? Should we be expecting him to go into a deep sleep?

Thanks again

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom,
Thank you very much for the comprehensive reply, first of all my apologies, I'd mistyped, it was mid-November when we stopped feeding, not December. We kept the temperature at normal basking temp for about a week to 10 days to allow food to pass through (he passed a few times whilst soaking and then no more after around 5 days) and then started lowering very slightly each day over the next couple of weeks (light and temp) whilst still soaking regularly (but in cooler water to align with the enclosure) until lighting/heating was completely off, then opened the windows in that room whilst it was very cold outside to bring the ambient room temperature to around 9'c. Once he'd been at that temp for a few days we put him into the fridge.
I agree the daily disturbance probably isn't good, it was because I'd read the door should be opened daily to allow ventilation. When he was in cardboard I started checking to see how he was but now he's in a plastic container it is easier to "leave him be". I read online that Russians can be quite "hardy" to cold temperatures and therefore sometimes reluctant to go down unless temperatures are very low, but again we're worried about doing him more harm by lowering too much.

That's useful regarding the substrate, and not something I'd seen before if I'm honest. We'd read that topsoil was ok, but as already stated above, I think a lot of information is old on the internet. We used to use Coco coir which was great but then found it very difficult to get in anything other than very small quantities around here, so stopped and switched to topsoil. I'll look into changing that. I did sterilise the soil currently used in his hibernation box by putting it in the oven for half an hour at 100'c, but a very good point about possible chemicals.

Given the above, is it worth persisting for a week or so more? Or even longer? Should we be expecting him to go into a deep sleep?

Thanks again

Well now that is a horse of a different color! Sounds like you did the lead-in time pretty perfectly.

In that case, I'd leave him alone for a whole longer and see if he settles. Maybe change the substrate. Got some coco coir handy? Or you can use news paper. I put several layers flat on the bottom, and then tear a whole bunch into shreds and fill the container so the tortoise can nestle into it and be buried under it.

Also, get a different digital thermometer, or two, and place them in the wine fridge near the tortoise. See how close your other one is. It might be too warm in there. I've had thermometers be off by more than 10 degrees before. I always use at least two.

Next, is the wine fridge in a busy area of the house? Lots of foot traffic? Near a door that opens and closes frequently? Tortoises can be sensitive to vibrations. I'm just guessing here, but trying to figure out why a tort with the right lead-in and the correct cold temps, doesn't want to drop into a winter slumber.

 

[Devnull]

Well now that is a horse of a different color! Sounds like you did the lead-in time pretty perfectly.

In that case, I'd leave him alone for a whole longer and see if he settles. Maybe change the substrate. Got some coco coir handy? Or you can use news paper. I put several layers flat on the bottom, and then tear a whole bunch into shreds and fill the container so the tortoise can nestle into it and be buried under it.

Also, get a different digital thermometer, or two, and place them in the wine fridge near the tortoise. See how close your other one is. It might be too warm in there. I've had thermometers be off by more than 10 degrees before. I always use at least two.

Next, is the wine fridge in a busy area of the house? Lots of foot traffic? Near a door that opens and closes frequently? Tortoises can be sensitive to vibrations. I'm just guessing here, but trying to figure out why a tort with the right lead-in and the correct cold temps, doesn't want to drop into a winter slumber.

Thanks, I don't have any Coco coir to hand though I'll go out and try to find some tomorrow. Failing that, I'll go on Amazon... We used to get it from Wilko's which was great value (£3.50 for 40L) however I think too many people got wind of it and just bought the entire lot. ?
Only thing is that it tends to be the blocks which you hydrate yourself, which means when you first do it, it's really wet - so the newspaper might be better. I was hoping the soil would help manage the temperature.

I've got an IR thermometer so I'll check the temperature with that. The fridge itself is controlled by setting an actual temperature, it's currently set to 5'c which is what is reflected on the single thermometer I have in, so those two read pretty close (varying by a degree or so sometimes).

The fridge is in our spare room, so the only real footfall is us passing by the door a few times a day, or the noise of the shower in the bathroom next door, though that is pretty minimal.

He has definitely slowed right down, any movements he makes are extremely slow, but the top and bottom of it is that he's not "asleep".


The only other thing I can think of is that he was a bit "hormonal" prior to us starting any of this (i.e. October, early November). We found him humping a rock in his enclosure several times (with associated noise! ?), and he was sometimes protective of his enclosure - when you put your hand in to feed, he'd often run over with his mouth open as if looking to bite - had a nip off him a couple of times. But all that settled & stopped as soon as we started winding him down. We've no other torts in the house etc. so not sure what made him feel attracted to a rock so much?? Or whether that's just normal behaviour?

Other than that, there's nothing I can think of. I'm going to not open the door until the day after tomorrow and see if some time alone helps him along.
Normally he's like clockwork with bedtime, as soon as the lights go out he's straight to sleep. In his outdoor enclosure we have a large upturned half plant pot and he often burrows under that and goes to sleep, just not sure why now he's acting so different. :/

 

[Tom]

Thanks, I don't have any Coco coir to hand though I'll go out and try to find some tomorrow. Failing that, I'll go on Amazon... We used to get it from Wilko's which was great value (£3.50 for 40L) however I think too many people got wind of it and just bought the entire lot. ?
Only thing is that it tends to be the blocks which you hydrate yourself, which means when you first do it, it's really wet - so the newspaper might be better. I was hoping the soil would help manage the temperature.

I've got an IR thermometer so I'll check the temperature with that. The fridge itself is controlled by setting an actual temperature, it's currently set to 5'c which is what is reflected on the single thermometer I have in, so those two read pretty close (varying by a degree or so sometimes).

The fridge is in our spare room, so the only real footfall is us passing by the door a few times a day, or the noise of the shower in the bathroom next door, though that is pretty minimal.

He has definitely slowed right down, any movements he makes are extremely slow, but the top and bottom of it is that he's not "asleep".


The only other thing I can think of is that he was a bit "hormonal" prior to us starting any of this (i.e. October, early November). We found him humping a rock in his enclosure several times (with associated noise! ?), and he was sometimes protective of his enclosure - when you put your hand in to feed, he'd often run over with his mouth open as if looking to bite - had a nip off him a couple of times. But all that settled stopped as we started winding him down. We've no other torts in the house etc. so not sure what made him feel attracted to a rock so much?? Or whether that's just normal behaviour?

All sounds pretty normal for a male in fall. They remain awake and are during their winter slumber, so I think if you just stop bugging him, he will settle. They still move around from time to time as the days and weeks pass and that is normal.

 

[Devnull]

Thanks, I'll leave him be a couple of days. Will update soon! ?

 

[Devnull]

Ok, so we left him completely alone since posting above, and I just checked him this morning... And he's still awake! ? Very, very lethargic, but awake all the same. It's been 10 days since putting him in now so we're wondering whether to just bring him out and begin warming him back up??

This is him - I lifted him out just to take the video.

 

[Devnull]

Also weighed him today, he's still 800g which is exactly what he was when he was put into the fridge 10 days ago.

I checked his shell temperature with a laser thermometer and it's reading 8-9'c, however two separate thermometers in the fridge say that the temperature in his box is 5-6'c. Presumably this is because his body will still give out some heat despite being cold-blooded?