Leaving hatchlings outside

[wellington]

Just to clarify. The ten degrees is my own and for the temps for leopards. However, for my leopard baby, temps of 70 is too cold. As an adult 70 would be okay but still with a warmer area. Now, I would think every species would be the same, not as far as temps, but as far as babies needing to be kept at warmer temps then adults. At least that is how I always took anything I have read on this forum. Hopefully, Gary, Tom, any of the older (not in age) but in tortoise keeping/raising can help out here.

 

[Laurie]

Just to clarify. The ten degrees is my own and for the temps for leopards. However, for my leopard baby, temps of 70 is too cold. As an adult 70 would be okay but still with a warmer area. Now, I would think every species would be the same, not as far as temps, but as far as babies needing to be kept at warmer temps then adults. At least that is how I always took anything I have read on this forum. Hopefully, Gary, Tom, any of the older (not in age) but in tortoise keeping/raising can help out here.

The elders I think the reason behind keeping your leopard warmer isn't because he/she is a baby. I think the reason is because you keep him wetter. Being kept humid and cold temperatures can cause RI. I don't keep my Russians as humid, my babies are well hydrated and have damp substrate to dig into, that's pretty much it. I understand the 10 degrees is the number you like and not set in stone, I was just having difficulty understanding why a baby would need different care , other than better hydration ( I understand why they would dehydrate quicker). I don't think they do.

 

[conservation]

The elders I think the reason behind keeping your leopard warmer isn't because he/she is a baby. I think the reason is because you keep him wetter. Being kept humid and cold temperatures can cause RI. I don't keep my Russians as humid, my babies are well hydrated and have damp substrate to dig into, that's pretty much it. I understand the 10 degrees is the number you like and not set in stone, I was just having difficulty understanding why a baby would need different care , other than better hydration ( I understand why they would dehydrate quicker). I don't think they do.

It is 60 degrees and there is a slight mist tonight. I was just out there with everyone. My tortoises do not have Mycoplasma agassizii. If they did, I would agree with keeping them super warm all the time. Torts with Mycoplasma agassizii seem to show RI like symptoms at lower temperatures and less symptoms at higher temperatures. A lot of seemingly healthy tortoises suffer from Mycoplasma. When they get to cool people think the weather caused the RI when in fact the tortoises has Mycoplasma in it's system. I would argue that keeping them super warm all the time will increase their growth rate and by doing so, I would not be surprised if it will shorten their life span. We will not be around to find out. If we take 20 years off the life of an animal that can live 100 plus years, how would we ever know?

In the wild, at night, is a tortoise burrow warm and damp or cold and damp? Maybe in the summer it stays 70 degrees but come the cold, rainy season, I bet it is not anywhere near 70 degrees.

Many reptiles cannot reproduce effectively without a period of cooling. We can control what sex eggs will be by controlling temperature. I would say both those examples point to temperature affecting hormone levels in reptiles. I would think a tortoise kept warm all the time is put into "super mode". They cannot effectively thermoregulate their bodies under a certain temperature so they keep eating, growing and moving. To us it seems like they are really healthy and doing awesome because they are so active and they eat sooo much. When in an outdoor setting, the same tortoise would bask to warm up, once warm forage for food, after it gets warm, retreat to a shady location, etc.

The leopards went from 30 grams to about 90 grams living outside 24/7 in a few months. They are up and walking around before the sun comes up everyday before the Greeks and the Hermann's.

My neighbor has kept his Sulcata outside 365 since it was about 4 inches. When I first heard that I was kind of shocked and I thought, how is that wild animal surviving without being kept warm at night under a nice ceramic light bulb? The more I thought about it, the more it made sense. The little tortoise, who is now a big tortoise was allowed to access to everything it needed to take care of itself. It dug a burrow and stayed in it when it was cold at night. It came out when the sun warmed it. Mind you low temps are usually mid to low 30s around here.

Would that 4 inch tortoise have been healthier being brought in at night? It would have probably been safer, but not healthier.

That is just my opinion.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Laurie,

It is still August, no matter how cool the mornings are. They sould have, of course, hides at their disposal; they have not to be humid in Saratoga Co., it is already too humid, but shade is essential to hatchlings. They can take the same as the adults. They need to be accorded with the natural rythms.

I am differing Elliott in saying that an outdoor tortoise will be more fit and hardy- that's the benefit. Of course, predator and climate agression should be limited, but the design of your enclosure.
Also you should have a small enclosure, to prevent loosing the baby, esp. if he start digging. If that happens, you should to be able to find him easy.

I let my hatchlings outdoors until they burrow for winter, in November. Then dig them up and placed in controlled hibernation. In April, I took them out and I burrow them back; in a few days, they emerge by themselves in their baby enclosure, as they wish and feel.

I agree the approach of Pets101.

 

[Tom]

It think it is a mistake to not consider differences between the species. Certainly Russians and other Testudo are adapted to dealing with a substantial drop in night time temps. Russians probably more so than most even. It makes sense to me that they would benefit from this sort of simulation of what they would encounter in a wild situation. One could even argue the point for leopards. I know a man who lives in the mountains in South Africa who tells me he gets snow, and all the leopard tortoises in his area "hibernate". He then sees them breeding like crazy in the spring.

I don't think that this is the case for sulcatas. I have no doubt that sulcatas can survive very low temps and cooling periods. I have seen it many times. I am not prepared to say that this is "beneficial" for them in any way. I have been watching the temps in six random spots throughout the sulcatas range since November, and they simply do not experience our typical North American temperature extremes in the wild. It just does not get cold there. Further, even when temps are at their most extreme in sulcata territory, they are deep underground and not subjected to them. The daily highs there are never low enough to get average burrow temps like what we would see here. My artificial burrows here change very little in temp from day to day. All summer we have temps around 100 and nights in the 60's. My burrows stay in the low 80's with very little fluctuation. However in winter, with the cooler days and nights, they drop down into the low 50s and hover there. A wild sulcata would never have temps that low. I'm going to make an educated guess based on the temps I have observed over there, compared to my temps here, and say that I doubt their wild burrows ever get below the 70s, even deep down, and most of the year they are probably in the 80's.

So for the OPs original question, given what I know from my limited experience and from talking to people with VAST experience, like GB, I think the outdoor temps stated are fine for a Russian. Assuming temps are the only factor being considered, I think Laurie's babies will be fine. I do not, however, believe that those temps are okay for a sulcata. Can a sulcata survive it? Yes, in most cases. Is it "good" for them? I do not think it is.

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

I wasnt comparing sulcatas to russians at all when it comes to their winter needs/habits. I was merely stating my comfort level with leaving baby tortoises outside or not because I rarely ever have any russian babies and all are almost always sold by winter time anyways.

I keep over a dozen adult russians. I've been keeping most of them for around 10 years picking up some here and there throughout the years. These are all WC tortoises that have always lived outside be it with me or their previous owner. I also have 4 CB adult russians that were basically only inside their whole lives only going outside once in a great while (Basically aquarium pets). I got the CB russians a few years ago in October or November so I kept them inside for the winter because I dont hibernate new additions. I introduced them to the colony a couple weeks after the WC's all started coming out of hibernation (I only introduce healthy torts to healthy torts). To this day not one has died from either the WC group or CB group. I cant tell any differences in their daily lives and if anything the CB have laid more eggs (from what I've seen, there could be plenty of nests I havent found) than the WC's even though they are significantly outnumbered. This is just my personal experience and its a pretty small sample size but its all I got so far. Maybe theres long term effects? Is it possible they are just copying the WC group?

Also you can provide cooling inside as well if you think its needed to raise a healthy baby russian, so theres no need to leave a baby tortoise outside for him to get his cool down period when you have no supervision and no control of the situation. Especially if you are not comfortable with leaving the tortoise outside in those temps.

I'd love to see any studies or personal experience Fabian showing that tortoises are more hardy being kept outside from hatchling to adult rather than being raised inside for most of their lives then being moved outside. Or even one better if you have the room and time you should start a study. Keep 10 or so hatchlings inside (obviously let them get natural sunshine however much you deem necessary) and the same amount outside and then introduce the ones from inside years down the road (however many years you think is adequate for the best possible study).

This is just my opinion and experience with russians. And Fabian in your words "These rats can live anywhere lol" is what you told me speaking of russians so was that ones raised only outside or only inside or both? It truly is one of the funniest things I've ever heard lol. I bet russians are the equivalent to their native countries that cockroaches and mice are to the US lol.

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

I wasnt comparing sulcatas to russians at all when it comes to their winter needs/habits. I was merely stating my comfort level with leaving baby tortoises outside or not because I rarely ever have any russian babies and all are almost always sold by winter time anyways.

I keep over a dozen adult russians. I've been keeping most of them for around 10 years picking up some here and there throughout the years. These are all WC tortoises that have always lived outside be it with me or their previous owner. I also have 4 CB adult russians that were basically only inside their whole lives only going outside once in a great while (Basically aquarium pets). I got the CB russians a few years ago in October or November so I kept them inside for the winter because I dont hibernate new additions. I introduced them to the colony a couple weeks after the WC's all started coming out of hibernation (I only introduce healthy torts to healthy torts). To this day not one has died from either the WC group or CB group. I cant tell any differences in their daily lives and if anything the CB have laid more eggs (from what I've seen, there could be plenty of nests I havent found) than the WC's even though they are significantly outnumbered. This is just my personal experience and its a pretty small sample size but its all I got so far. Maybe theres long term effects? Is it possible they are just copying the WC group?

Also you can provide cooling inside as well if you think its needed to raise a healthy baby russian, so theres no need to leave a baby tortoise outside for him to get his cool down period when you have no supervision and no control of the situation. Especially if you are not comfortable with leaving the tortoise outside in those temps.

I'd love to see any studies or personal experience Fabian showing that tortoises are more hardy being kept outside from hatchling to adult rather than being raised inside for most of their lives then being moved outside. Or even one better if you have the room and time you should start a study. Keep 10 or so hatchlings inside (obviously let them get natural sunshine however much you deem necessary) and the same amount outside and then introduce the ones from inside years down the road (however many years you think is adequate for the best possible study).

This is just my opinion and experience with russians. And Fabian in your words "These rats can live anywhere lol" is what you told me speaking of russians so was that ones raised only outside or only inside or both? It truly is one of the funniest things I've ever heard lol. I bet russians are the equivalent to their native countries that cockroaches and mice are to the US lol.

You just earned 10 point's of respect in my book

---

It think it is a mistake to not consider differences between the species. Certainly Russians and other Testudo are adapted to dealing with a substantial drop in night time temps. Russians probably more so than most even. It makes sense to me that they would benefit from this sort of simulation of what they would encounter in a wild situation. One could even argue the point for leopards. I know a man who lives in the mountains in South Africa who tells me he gets snow, and all the leopard tortoises in his area "hibernate". He then sees them breeding like crazy in the spring.

I don't think that this is the case for sulcatas. I have no doubt that sulcatas can survive very low temps and cooling periods. I have seen it many times. I am not prepared to say that this is "beneficial" for them in any way. I have been watching the temps in six random spots throughout the sulcatas range since November, and they simply do not experience our typical North American temperature extremes in the wild. It just does not get cold there. Further, even when temps are at their most extreme in sulcata territory, they are deep underground and not subjected to them. The daily highs there are never low enough to get average burrow temps like what we would see here. My artificial burrows here change very little in temp from day to day. All summer we have temps around 100 and nights in the 60's. My burrows stay in the low 80's with very little fluctuation. However in winter, with the cooler days and nights, they drop down into the low 50s and hover there. A wild sulcata would never have temps that low. I'm going to make an educated guess based on the temps I have observed over there, compared to my temps here, and say that I doubt their wild burrows ever get below the 70s, even deep down, and most of the year they are probably in the 80's.

So for the OPs original question, given what I know from my limited experience and from talking to people with VAST experience, like GB, I think the outdoor temps stated are fine for a Russian. Assuming temps are the only factor being considered, I think Laurie's babies will be fine. I do not, however, believe that those temps are okay for a sulcata. Can a sulcata survive it? Yes, in most cases. Is it "good" for them? I do not think it is.

You too Tom!

 

[Laurie]

I wasnt concerned about the temperature. I'm not too concerned about predators either. I think my enclosures are secure. I was looking for any possible reasons other than those to be a cause to keep bringing them in. I got sidetracked with the temperature thing because Barb mentioned it and I have not heard that Russian babies should be kept warmer. I then wanted to understand the reasoning behind that

I asked GB about this, and in his opinion, Russian babies can be treated the same way as adult Russians with the exception of hydration. Due to a smaller body mass, they dehydrate quicker, therefore require more hydration, this makes sense to me.

I certainly can understand the apprehension with leaving hatchlings outside, they're so small. I try to leave mine outside as long as possible, which usually means I am pulling them out of the little "dens" they had made to spend the night. That's when I started wondering if it would be less stressful for them to just leave them be. If its safe for my adult to be outside, why not the babies? I thought about this and the only reason I have to bring them in, is because they're babies..I was wondering if anyone had any other reasons, that was my intention with this thread.

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

I wasnt concerned about the temperature. I'm not too concerned about predators either. I think my enclosures are secure. I was looking for any possible reasons other than those to be a cause to keep bringing them in. I got sidetracked with the temperature thing because Barb mentioned it and I have not heard that Russian babies should be kept warmer. I then wanted to understand the reasoning behind that

I asked GB about this, and in his opinion, Russian babies can be treated the same way as adult Russians with the exception of hydration. Due to a smaller body mass, they dehydrate quicker, therefore require more hydration, this makes sense to me.

I certainly can understand the apprehension with leaving hatchlings outside, they're so small. I try to leave mine outside as long as possible, which usually means I am pulling them out of the little "dens" they had made to spend the night. That's when I started wondering if it would be less stressful for them to just leave them be. If its safe for my adult to be outside, why not the babies? I thought about this and the only reason I have to bring them in, is because they're babies..I was wondering if anyone had any other reasons, that was my intention with this thread.

Oh ok well that clears a whole lot up lol. Do you hibernate your older one? If so are you going to hibernate your younger ones?

 

[Laurie]

No, I'm not going to hibernate any of them, this will be the first full winter of having them. They'll probably only be able to stay out 24/7 for another few weeks. Then , I will be concerned about temperatures Its just when I bring them in, I feel bad. I feel like I'm disturbing them and CAUSING stress to them by doing it. I think they might be better off just leaving them where they are.

 

[Tom]

Laurie, if it helps in your decision any, my leopard herd is outside all day everyday, weather permitting. I always bring them in at night, but sometimes I don't get home until 10 or 11 pm. They are all dug in and settled by that point. I simply pick them up, load them into a tub and carry them into their indoor enclosure. They just sluggishly walk into their hide boxes, plop down and resume sleeping. Kinda the same thing I do with my daughter when we get home late... Except I don't use a tub or hide box with her.

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

Laurie, if it helps in your decision any, my leopard herd is outside all day everyday, weather permitting. I always bring them in at night, but sometimes I don't get home until 10 or 11 pm. They are all dug in and settled by that point. I simply pick them up, load them into a tub and carry them into their indoor enclosure. They just sluggishly walk into their hide boxes, plop down and resume sleeping. Kinda the same thing I do with my daughter when we get home late... Except I don't use a tub or hide box with her.

Lol

 

[CactusVinnie]

Elliott,

I remember saying something about Russians- maybe that they can live anywhere in the dry US west, wich I truly believe, but not anywhere in terms of indoors vs. outdoors. I called them "rats with scutes", due to their extreme burrowing habit .
They can live indoors, as you and others demonstrate, if at least partial outdoors time spent, but, although I cannot show studies or personal experience, I consider that ANY indoor kept animal is no match to an outdoor one. It is always a plus of "training" in any outdoor animal. Its instincts are not asleep, it is always more prepared for dealing with diverse factors.
For instance, an indoor tortoise can catch "cold" easier when exposed to some cold, while the outdoor one has no problems, since he's already trained.
I can say that only for (sub)tropical fish- I use to let them outdoors April/May-September/November. It's not the same thing in some respects, but it shows something, clearly.

I don't have the conditions to make the experiment, it's too complicated... and thinking like I do, I don't even have a motivation. They are ok, and they endure what nature prepared them for, as long as I "smooth" some of the extremes, since not many choices offered in captivity, so that I try to compensate that like any keeper: hides, permanent water, controlled hibernation, artificial incubation and so on.

Cheers!

 

[kanalomele]

For my hatchlings I never recommend hibernating them for the first year minimum. I prefer the first two to three years but leave that up to the new owners. They simply do not have the necessary reserves to survive if something goes wrong during hibernating. My adults are kept outside all year and only brought in if there is a problem. Since it is the seasonal weather changes that inspire this hibernating I would bring them in. A cool indoor home temp is usually fine during the night. I don't let them get below 60, but they need a cool off at night. I simply cover the enclosure and turn off the light. The cover helps the temp change very gradually as it holds onto the days heat for longer than an open top. When left outside they will.definitely want to hibernate