Leopard Tortoise Planning/Advice!

sdmoran

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2020
Messages
10
Location (City and/or State)
California
Hi all! My mom and I have been looking for years to get a tortoise. We recently started doing more and more research and decided that a leopard tortoise would probably be our best bet. We live in So Cal which seems to be a good climate for housing an outdoor leopard tortoise. Unfortunately, we have stumbled upon the realization that juvenile/adult leopard tortoises are extremely difficult to find. Though we would prefer to have a tortoise of this age we have considered just getting a baby and keeping it on a tortoise table indoors until it is of adequate size. We thought that this would be the best place to ask all of our questions regarding this. I am attaching our questions below, and if you can answer any of them that would be great. If you have any other advice you would like to share regarding leopard tortoises please attach it! We want to know as much as we can before getting one!

1. Do you know of any reputable breeders who have juvenile/adult leopard tortoises in the California/Nevada/Arizona region?
2. Is a tortoise table with adequate UVB the best way to house a young indoor tortoise?
3. What is the difference in care between a yearling and a hatchling?
4. Do you have any suggestions for the layout of an outdoor enclosure?
5. Do leopard tortoises need an area with extra humidity outdoors?
6. Do leopard tortoises really not dig that much?
7. Is there a significant difference in care between male and female tortoises?
8. How much calcium is too much calcium and how do we tell?
9. What is the best material to cover an outdoor enclosure with (mesh, wood lid, etc.)?
10. Is there anything that you wish you knew before getting a leopard tortoise?
 

Hamiltondood

Active Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
248
Location (City and/or State)
Richmond, Texas
instead of getting a tortoise table, you might need a closed chamber if you'd like to get a hatchling leopard, you can get a grow tent for about $100 and just flip it.

i only have a sulcata but they have pretty similar care..

chicken wire is probably best for an outdoor enclosure if the tortoise is on the smaller side.

the care for a male and female tortoise would most likely be the same.

you can't really tell how much calcium is too much but you should probably sprinkle a tiny bit of calcium powder on the food twice a week, a cuttlebone is only great too.

read the link that Maro2Bear sent, its GREAT.
welcome to the forum!

i think this is the post that Maro2Bear is talking about

 

Maro2Bear

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
14,712
Location (City and/or State)
Glenn Dale, Maryland, USA
instead of getting a tortoise table, you might need a closed chamber if you'd like to get a hatchling leopard, you can get a grow tent for about $100 and just flip it.

i only have a sulcata but they have pretty similar care..

chicken wire is probably best for an outdoor enclosure if the tortoise is on the smaller side.

the care for a male and female tortoise would most likely be the same.

you can't really tell how much calcium is too much but you should probably sprinkle a tiny bit of calcium powder on the food twice a week, a cuttlebone is only great too.

read the link that Maro2Bear sent, its GREAT.
welcome to the forum!

i think this is the post that Maro2Bear is talking about



Yes, i see it’s a bit older than I thought. Tks
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,265
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Hi all! My mom and I have been looking for years to get a tortoise. We recently started doing more and more research and decided that a leopard tortoise would probably be our best bet. We live in So Cal which seems to be a good climate for housing an outdoor leopard tortoise. Unfortunately, we have stumbled upon the realization that juvenile/adult leopard tortoises are extremely difficult to find. Though we would prefer to have a tortoise of this age we have considered just getting a baby and keeping it on a tortoise table indoors until it is of adequate size. We thought that this would be the best place to ask all of our questions regarding this. I am attaching our questions below, and if you can answer any of them that would be great. If you have any other advice you would like to share regarding leopard tortoises please attach it! We want to know as much as we can before getting one!

1. Do you know of any reputable breeders who have juvenile/adult leopard tortoises in the California/Nevada/Arizona region?
2. Is a tortoise table with adequate UVB the best way to house a young indoor tortoise?
3. What is the difference in care between a yearling and a hatchling?
4. Do you have any suggestions for the layout of an outdoor enclosure?
5. Do leopard tortoises need an area with extra humidity outdoors?
6. Do leopard tortoises really not dig that much?
7. Is there a significant difference in care between male and female tortoises?
8. How much calcium is too much calcium and how do we tell?
9. What is the best material to cover an outdoor enclosure with (mesh, wood lid, etc.)?
10. Is there anything that you wish you knew before getting a leopard tortoise?
You've caught me at a moment when I have time to type up a long response. I'm going to lay 30+ years of tortoise experience on you all at once so that your first tortoise experience is a positive one instead of the usual heartbreaking one.

First thing is to stop "researching". We've been caring for this species all wrong for decades. The same wrong info has been repeated for so many generations, that its all you see. You found it. All the wrong info. Now, you've found us. The only source I know of with the RIGHT info that leads to a healthy baby and a happy tortoise experience. Learn where to get a tortoise and how to care for it here on this forum. Forget all the other stuff you've been reading.

The most important thing to understand is that almost no one starts these babies correctly and the majority of them die weeks or months after purchase. You'll spend hundreds on vet bills and it won't do any good, because the baby's fate was sealed by the breeder not doing the right things. Then you would become one of the many people who lament about how delicate and difficult babies are to keep alive. They aren't. They are easy and 100% of them will thrive if you house and care for them the RIGHT way. Don't buy a baby from someone who doesn't use a brooder box, doesn't soak them daily, keeps them outside all day, and doesn't house them in a warm humid closed chamber. Here is what happens when you buy from the vast majority of breeders out there: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

By contrast, here are two threads showing how babies SHOULD be started:

The above three threads will help you understand what questions to ask of any breeder. Don't buy from one who doesn't soak them daily, start them in a brooder box for 7-10 days after hatching, keep them mostly indoors in a closed humid chamber, and doesn't introduce a wide variety of good foods. Buying the wrong baby from the wrong source will doom you to failure no matter how perfectly you do everything else.

Still with me? Let's press on... I'll answer your questions at this point, and then give you some more info:
1. As you've seen, people seldom part with adults of juvies, but it doesn't hurt to look.
2. No. An open tortoise table is the worst way to house them. Its impossible to maintain the correct conditions in something like that. And in our sunny warm SoCal climate, you don't need indoor UV and its best to not use it because it causes pyramiding.
3. No difference. Same. Across the board. A yearling can stay in its outdoor enclosure for more time than a small baby.
4. Kiddie pools with some orchid bark in the bottom work well for babies. Or a 4x8' pen made of cinder blocks or 2x12 boards, with a welded wire cover.
5. Yes. You can give them a humid hide and damp substrate when they are babies, and you can humidify the heated night house when they are adults.
6. The only time they dig is when a female is making a nest hole. Babies will sometimes shimmy (dig) down into the substrate to hide or cool off.
7. No difference in care for males vs. females.
8. With the right diet, calcium supplementation isn't really necessary. A tiny pinch twice a week is plenty. They will eliminate any excess. Its not a problem and calcium doesn't cause bladder stones. Urates formed from overly dry conditions and protein digestion cause the stones you've read about. Calcium has nothing to do with those.
9. Welded wire. Chicken wire is too weak. Window screen is too fine and also too weak. Hardware cloth can work, but welded wire is best.
10. Yes. All of the above! :) And all of the below too!

Mark B. linked the care sheet for you above, but I'm going to put it here too for convenience.

You will need a closed chamber. I recommend getting one from @Markw84 . I also like the ones from Animal Plastics, but Mark's are better, ready to go, and don't take months to get.

Next you've got to decide which type of leopard you want. The "regular type", or the South African type. The regular type have a higher dome, stay smaller, and tend to be shy in comparison. The South Africans get bigger, have a little different shape, and tend to be more bold and outgoing. Both are good pets, both are easy to feed and house, both do great in SoCal with the right housing. Neither of them burrow or destroy the yard like a sulcata.

For regular leopards, I highly recommend @Kapidolo Farms , @Gijoux , and @wccmog10 . All of them start babies correctly. If you want the South African type, I breed those and so does @Rodriguez Chelonians . All of these breeders are here in SoCal except Wade, but he can ship. What part of SoCal are you in? Very different advice for someone in Palm Springs vs. Hermosa Beach.

This is a lot to take in. Your questions are welcome. I'm happy to explain any of this further.
 

sdmoran

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2020
Messages
10
Location (City and/or State)
California
You've caught me at a moment when I have time to type up a long response. I'm going to lay 30+ years of tortoise experience on you all at once so that your first tortoise experience is a positive one instead of the usual heartbreaking one.

First thing is to stop "researching". We've been caring for this species all wrong for decades. The same wrong info has been repeated for so many generations, that its all you see. You found it. All the wrong info. Now, you've found us. The only source I know of with the RIGHT info that leads to a healthy baby and a happy tortoise experience. Learn where to get a tortoise and how to care for it here on this forum. Forget all the other stuff you've been reading.

The most important thing to understand is that almost no one starts these babies correctly and the majority of them die weeks or months after purchase. You'll spend hundreds on vet bills and it won't do any good, because the baby's fate was sealed by the breeder not doing the right things. Then you would become one of the many people who lament about how delicate and difficult babies are to keep alive. They aren't. They are easy and 100% of them will thrive if you house and care for them the RIGHT way. Don't buy a baby from someone who doesn't use a brooder box, doesn't soak them daily, keeps them outside all day, and doesn't house them in a warm humid closed chamber. Here is what happens when you buy from the vast majority of breeders out there: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

By contrast, here are two threads showing how babies SHOULD be started:

The above three threads will help you understand what questions to ask of any breeder. Don't buy from one who doesn't soak them daily, start them in a brooder box for 7-10 days after hatching, keep them mostly indoors in a closed humid chamber, and doesn't introduce a wide variety of good foods. Buying the wrong baby from the wrong source will doom you to failure no matter how perfectly you do everything else.

Still with me? Let's press on... I'll answer your questions at this point, and then give you some more info:
1. As you've seen, people seldom part with adults of juvies, but it doesn't hurt to look.
2. No. An open tortoise table is the worst way to house them. Its impossible to maintain the correct conditions in something like that. And in our sunny warm SoCal climate, you don't need indoor UV and its best to not use it because it causes pyramiding.
3. No difference. Same. Across the board. A yearling can stay in its outdoor enclosure for more time than a small baby.
4. Kiddie pools with some orchid bark in the bottom work well for babies. Or a 4x8' pen made of cinder blocks or 2x12 boards, with a welded wire cover.
5. Yes. You can give them a humid hide and damp substrate when they are babies, and you can humidify the heated night house when they are adults.
6. The only time they dig is when a female is making a nest hole. Babies will sometimes shimmy (dig) down into the substrate to hide or cool off.
7. No difference in care for males vs. females.
8. With the right diet, calcium supplementation isn't really necessary. A tiny pinch twice a week is plenty. They will eliminate any excess. Its not a problem and calcium doesn't cause bladder stones. Urates formed from overly dry conditions and protein digestion cause the stones you've read about. Calcium has nothing to do with those.
9. Welded wire. Chicken wire is too weak. Window screen is too fine and also too weak. Hardware cloth can work, but welded wire is best.
10. Yes. All of the above! :) And all of the below too!

Mark B. linked the care sheet for you above, but I'm going to put it here too for convenience.

You will need a closed chamber. I recommend getting one from @Markw84 . I also like the ones from Animal Plastics, but Mark's are better, ready to go, and don't take months to get.

Next you've got to decide which type of leopard you want. The "regular type", or the South African type. The regular type have a higher dome, stay smaller, and tend to be shy in comparison. The South Africans get bigger, have a little different shape, and tend to be more bold and outgoing. Both are good pets, both are easy to feed and house, both do great in SoCal with the right housing. Neither of them burrow or destroy the yard like a sulcata.

For regular leopards, I highly recommend @Kapidolo Farms , @Gijoux , and @wccmog10 . All of them start babies correctly. If you want the South African type, I breed those and so does @Rodriguez Chelonians . All of these breeders are here in SoCal except Wade, but he can ship. What part of SoCal are you in? Very different advice for someone in Palm Springs vs. Hermosa Beach.

This is a lot to take in. Your questions are welcome. I'm happy to explain any of this further.
Wow! Thank you for all of that! We are extremely appreciative. You are right, that is a lot of information! We are going to take some time and look through all of the documents and process all of it. We live in San Diego, but we are definitely willing to drive a bit. For future reference, do you have any South African leopard tortoises available now/know when they will be available next? Again, thank you so much for all of your information and we will keep in contact!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,265
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Wow! Thank you for all of that! We are extremely appreciative. You are right, that is a lot of information! We are going to take some time and look through all of the documents and process all of it. We live in San Diego, but we are definitely willing to drive a bit. For future reference, do you have any South African leopard tortoises available now/know when they will be available next? Again, thank you so much for all of your information and we will keep in contact!
Will @Kapidolo Farms is in San Diego and he does an EXCELLENT job of starting babies! I'm incubating SA eggs right now and should have babies in about 6-8 weeks. I'm all the way up in Santa Clarita. Rodriguez Chelonians is up here sort of near me.
 

sdmoran

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2020
Messages
10
Location (City and/or State)
California
Will @Kapidolo Farms is in San Diego and he does an EXCELLENT job of starting babies! I'm incubating SA eggs right now and should have babies in about 6-8 weeks. I'm all the way up in Santa Clarita. Rodriguez Chelonians is up here sort of near me.
Thanks so much for the info! We will definitely be in touch in the future about more information and potentially about the babies! Do you have a website where you list them or is it all communicated on the forums? Thank you again!
 

Unkapunka

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
240
Location (City and/or State)
Osage City
I just got a baby redfoot from Will. He is an excellent breeder. I was going to get a leopard from him I just change my mind.
 

txturtledude

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
100
Location (City and/or State)
DFW Area, Texas
Will @Kapidolo Farms is in San Diego and he does an EXCELLENT job of starting babies! I'm incubating SA eggs right now and should have babies in about 6-8 weeks. I'm all the way up in Santa Clarita. Rodriguez Chelonians is up here sort of near me.

Hello @Tom,
I want a baby SA Leopard. How do I purchase one from you? I live in DFW area of Texas, so it would require shipping. Please advise...
Thx!
Charlie (txturtledude)
[email protected]
 

NaCL

New Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
4
Location (City and/or State)
Over the hill at grandma's house
I've learned more helpful and practical information on this site in the last few weeks then all the time talking to local breeders near me.

@Tom
Save an SA Leopard for me please! I rather get one from you than a local near me.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,265
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
I've learned more helpful and practical information on this site in the last few weeks then all the time talking to local breeders near me.

@Tom
Save an SA Leopard for me please! I rather get one from you than a local near me.
Okay. Will do.
 

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