Can my marginated actually get my russian pregnant? I don't want babies. I don't want to keep them apart since they seem to like each other but I know they cant be unsupervised because he was trying to bite her 
Mating Question
- Thread starter Kerryann
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Yes its possible, and they really should not be in contact with each other anyway. There are the behavioral problems that you are already aware of, but the disease potential is high too. They come from different areas with different pathogens and each has evolved with their specific parasites and pathogen. The other species might not have the means to deal with the others pathogens.
My vet cleared them both and didn't think it was an issue? Also they are both captive bred not wild caught.
Kerryann said:
That just means that no one was shedding anything that the vet was looking for at the time the stool sample was taken. Many things are difficult and very expensive to diagnose. Cryptosporidium for example. Very common to russians. There is no way for a vet to "clear" them because it is impossible to know what all they might be harboring without a necropsy. It scares me that your vet told you that this was okay...
The risk is less with captive bred babies, but please just be aware that it is still a risk. It is a risk I would not take. Besides the disease risk, I can guarantee that the one being mounted and bitten is not enjoying the interaction in any way. Its the equivalent of locking a kid in a room with the school bully every once in a while. The victim does not like it and wants to leave the area...
My husband understands pathogens so I turned that over to him for his research. We made sure he didn't do anything after we found him trying. Thanks for the information.
some things are respiritory.. it wont hurt the host... but it can hurt the visitor...
You should probably look into installing a few of these. Wouldn't want to risk anything.
http://www.terrauniversal.com/cleanrooms/modular-clean-rooms-x.php
I would also advise you to never let them outside. EVER. After all, they did evolve in a completely different region of the world from where you live, so by default, your backyard is full of things they probably won't be able to deal with.
/s
http://www.terrauniversal.com/cleanrooms/modular-clean-rooms-x.php
I would also advise you to never let them outside. EVER. After all, they did evolve in a completely different region of the world from where you live, so by default, your backyard is full of things they probably won't be able to deal with.
/s
jaizei said:
^^I'm assuming that's a joke.
Anyway, I agree with Tom's advice about mixing tortoise species from different parts of the world. Even if dewormed, they still have the potential to spread microbial diseases to each other. The phenomenon is well documented, and although it might not happen, the risk is there.
As for the hybridization issue, both Russians and marginateds are in the genus Testudo (T. horsfieldii and T. marginata, respectively), although they are not particularly close within that genus. The Russian's closest relative is the Hermann, and the marginated's closest relative is the Greek. Russians have been known to hybridize with Hermann's in captivity. Moreover, even distantly-related tortoises have been known to hybridize. Sulcatas can hybridize with leopard tortoises, so I have little doubt that a Russian and a marginated tortoise could produce hybrid offspring. I would not let them associate with each other.
Once again, Tom kicks a*s!
And I read this since I saw "mating question" and forgot I was on Tortoise Forum. My (dirty) mind sure is wondering as the age creeps up!
And I read this since I saw "mating question" and forgot I was on Tortoise Forum. My (dirty) mind sure is wondering as the age creeps up!
Honestly I was pretty surprised by the whole thing. We have had Henry for about a month now and he has been a really quiet good boy. He had in the past climbed on betty once but it was in an attempt to escape the perimeter my husband created for their play area. My husband is going to rework the play area so they can both have their own areas.
My husband is researching what the specific pathogens would be. He said that pathogen is too broad of a term to be helpful to him because it really includes everything like bacteria, viruses, molds, and even environmental things. He said that they are already exposed to pathogens from being in a non-native location and also having contact with humans. His example was that outside they come into contact with pathogens from birds, humans, dogs, and other various critters in the yard. He said that there could be a serious concern of pathogens from one tortoise to another because a pathogen from one tortoise to another is more likely to effect them than a pathogen they contact from a human or a bird. Again, I don't have very much knowledge in the biology area so I will leave that research to him. He's very smart.
I would never put my animals in any additional danger on purpose. This is why we clean our house with all natural cleaners, our dogs and tortoises have the purest and organic diets available, and we monitor their activities closely. On the other hand, I don't want to overly restrict them and make them all live in plastic bubbles, so I understand there is a balance.
I really didn't mean to start a fight with my thread
My husband is researching what the specific pathogens would be. He said that pathogen is too broad of a term to be helpful to him because it really includes everything like bacteria, viruses, molds, and even environmental things. He said that they are already exposed to pathogens from being in a non-native location and also having contact with humans. His example was that outside they come into contact with pathogens from birds, humans, dogs, and other various critters in the yard. He said that there could be a serious concern of pathogens from one tortoise to another because a pathogen from one tortoise to another is more likely to effect them than a pathogen they contact from a human or a bird. Again, I don't have very much knowledge in the biology area so I will leave that research to him. He's very smart.
I would never put my animals in any additional danger on purpose. This is why we clean our house with all natural cleaners, our dogs and tortoises have the purest and organic diets available, and we monitor their activities closely. On the other hand, I don't want to overly restrict them and make them all live in plastic bubbles, so I understand there is a balance.
I really didn't mean to start a fight with my thread
It's hard to be more specific on pathogens and cross contamination. You will have to accept our advice that mixing species is not recommended because of the risk of illness.
Male tortoises of any species, but particularly testudo, can be very aggressive when their hormones get going. They harass females with butting and biting and females this can lead to the female becoming withdrawn and ill and ultimately death.
They are naturally solitary creatures and don't get lonely in the way that humans do... which probably explains why the males lack finesse on the romantic front.
Overall, even if they were the same species, I'd recommend you keep them apart.
Male tortoises of any species, but particularly testudo, can be very aggressive when their hormones get going. They harass females with butting and biting and females this can lead to the female becoming withdrawn and ill and ultimately death.
They are naturally solitary creatures and don't get lonely in the way that humans do... which probably explains why the males lack finesse on the romantic front.
Overall, even if they were the same species, I'd recommend you keep them apart.
Kerryann said:My husband is researching what the specific pathogens would be. He said that pathogen is too broad of a term to be helpful to him because it really includes everything like bacteria, viruses, molds, and even environmental things. He said that they are already exposed to pathogens from being in a non-native location and also having contact with humans. His example was that outside they come into contact with pathogens from birds, humans, dogs, and other various critters in the yard. He said that there could be a serious concern of pathogens from one tortoise to another because a pathogen from one tortoise to another is more likely to effect them than a pathogen they contact from a human or a bird. Again, I don't have very much knowledge in the biology area so I will leave that research to him. He's very smart.
The two main culprits when it comes to turtles are Mycoplasma bacteria and Herpes viruses. For humans and animals alike, parasites like these may be tolerable for a given species, but when they jump from one species to another they can become virulent and dangerous.
Mycoplasma bacteria are notorious for causing runny nose syndrome (RNS), and from jumping between different tortoise species. Even if your vet eradicates all parasitic worms (which is not necessarily good), and administers antibiotics to get rid of all infections, he/she still wouldn't get rid of Mycoplasma, because antibiotics don't work on them. Because they are intracellular parasites that lack their own cell wall, they function more like viruses than the bacteria they are, and are virtually immune to drugs that would kill other bacteria.
Another problem is Herpes virus. Just like humans, reptiles can have their own Herpes viruses. And like us, they can tolerate the virus that is specific to their own species. However, like us, if they catch a virus that used to be confined to another species, they could become very ill. For example, a bad Herpes infection in a turtle can cause stomatitis, also known as mouth rot, because of how it damages the inside of the mouth.
I'm sure you take good care of your animals, and odds are that they are both healthy. However, many a happy tortoise keeper has mixed species, only to find that they swap diseases and get sick. Best not to risk it.
JoesMum said:
I basically agree with that statement, in that most tortoise species are adapted to spending long stretches of time alone. However, I still think it's a good idea to let healthy members of the same species interact with each other from time to time. I touch on this in the new thread, "The great debate: turtle sociality" in the Debatable Topics section. I house my Russians separately, but I have noticed that even largely solitary animals like these seem to benefit from occasional contact with each other out in the open.
BTW - Best not to let those randy little buggers hybridize.
Thanks for the information. I will pass it on to my husband. I definitely don't want them getting sick.
I don't want babies in addition to the mixed breeding, because I wouldn't give them away and would end up on animal hoarders. My house has to stay extremely sanitary because of all of the allergies in my household. My husband has dust allergies, my dog has dust and mold allergies in addition to food allergies, and I have chemical and food allergies. Every additional animal we bring in adds to my cleaning regiment which is already extensive.
I don't want babies in addition to the mixed breeding, because I wouldn't give them away and would end up on animal hoarders. My house has to stay extremely sanitary because of all of the allergies in my household. My husband has dust allergies, my dog has dust and mold allergies in addition to food allergies, and I have chemical and food allergies. Every additional animal we bring in adds to my cleaning regiment which is already extensive.
Kerryann said:Honestly I was pretty surprised by the whole thing. We have had Henry for about a month now and he has been a really quiet good boy. He had in the past climbed on betty once but it was in an attempt to escape the perimeter my husband created for their play area. My husband is going to rework the play area so they can both have their own areas.
My husband is researching what the specific pathogens would be. He said that pathogen is too broad of a term to be helpful to him because it really includes everything like bacteria, viruses, molds, and even environmental things. He said that they are already exposed to pathogens from being in a non-native location and also having contact with humans. His example was that outside they come into contact with pathogens from birds, humans, dogs, and other various critters in the yard. He said that there could be a serious concern of pathogens from one tortoise to another because a pathogen from one tortoise to another is more likely to effect them than a pathogen they contact from a human or a bird. Again, I don't have very much knowledge in the biology area so I will leave that research to him. He's very smart.
I would never put my animals in any additional danger on purpose. This is why we clean our house with all natural cleaners, our dogs and tortoises have the purest and organic diets available, and we monitor their activities closely. On the other hand, I don't want to overly restrict them and make them all live in plastic bubbles, so I understand there is a balance.
I really didn't mean to start a fight with my thread
I would not have you do it any other way. The best thing you (or husband) can do is to educate yourself and make a decision based on that. Something to keep in mind also is whether having two separate pens is actually keeping them separate. What about rain/runoff? Or animals (squirrels/cats) going from pen to pen. There is great opportunity for cross contamination, which is another reason I think the risk is over stated.
it isn't about advocating the mixing of species. It is about wanting facts before making decisions. I do not tell anyone that they should or should not mix species. I think that is a decision that is up to the individual. But I think they should not be bullied into it one way or the other.
JoesMum said:
Since when is this ever considered good advice? If you can not specify exactly what is the risk, then how can you be so certain that it is a great risk or that it even exists. Don't worry about the thinking, we'll do it for you.
Just a word of advice here: Our number 1 Forum rule is...
Do not post anything blatantly rude and/or insulting.
If you can get your point across without being rude and insulting, then your posts won't be deleted.
Do not post anything blatantly rude and/or insulting.
If you can get your point across without being rude and insulting, then your posts won't be deleted.
I will keep them apart because I don't want my baby girl sexually bullied anyway. My husband is still researching this because he is curious if the pathogens would not be common among captive bred tortys anyway. He is a freak and loves this crap.
My husband is still researching this because he is curious if the pathogens would not be common among captive bred tortys anyway. He is a freak and loves this crap.
Well tell your husband to share his freakish crap with us when he finds some stuff... We all want to learn more. If you do a simple search for tortoise diseases all sorts of stuff comes up. One of the best resources is the vet clinic handbooks if you can get access to them. All sorts of good info in those. I've read quite a few and frankly they scare me. It is a wonder that we don't see more problems than we already do. There are a myriad of potential baddies out there, and russians are known to carry a lot of them. Some of them can be spread on the leg and body hairs of flies as they move from pen to pen. Not trying to freak you out... It can be overwhelming though.
We all want to learn more. If you do a simple search for tortoise diseases all sorts of stuff comes up. One of the best resources is the vet clinic handbooks if you can get access to them. All sorts of good info in those. I've read quite a few and frankly they scare me. It is a wonder that we don't see more problems than we already do. There are a myriad of potential baddies out there, and russians are known to carry a lot of them. Some of them can be spread on the leg and body hairs of flies as they move from pen to pen. Not trying to freak you out... It can be overwhelming though.
I will let you guys know. There are no flies in my house. thank god
thank god
jaizei said:
That's just it. There are different levels of risk. Take any two individuals (humans, turtles, same or different species, whatever). If one is healthy and the other is sick or a carrier, then the closer the healthy one gets to the other one, the greater the likelihood of infection. If they share bodily fluids, the risk is highest. If they touch each other, the risk is a little lower. If they share the same room or pen, the risk is a little lower. If they live in the same area, the risk is lower still, although there could still be contagion from insects, gusts of air, water droplets, etc. The lowest risk is if the two individuals are quite far away from each other, and the healthy one is unlikely to be exposed to any of the germs from the other.
So, tortoise keepers who house different tortoise species separately are at a lower risk than those who keep them all together, but at a greater risk than those who have only one species at all. That is why I keep only one species of tortoise (Russians); I want to minimize my risks.
jaizei said:
It is a decision that is up to the individual, but it is not simply a matter of opinion. If the facts are known, then it is relatively straightforward to determine what the right or wrong decision is. If the facts are unclear, then knowing what the right or wrong decision is becomes tougher. Only matters of taste are purely in the realm of personal opinion, because there are no objective standards by which to judge them. So, although we have prerogative when it comes to caring for our pets, it is possible to make an objective mistake.
That's what TFO is here for: to share our tastes, discuss what is unclear, and inform each other of what appear to be facts. In the case of disease prevention, it is pretty clear that the closer two tortoises from different species are to each other, the greater their risk of contagion.
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