Mixed Veggies in Diet?

[orv]

Our four CDTs, one adult male and one adult female along with two juvinile females, are being fed approximately 10% thawed frozen vegetables (peas, carrots, corn and string beans). These are eaten voraciously. I've not seen the pros/cons here on the forums. As the growing season here in Southern California matures, more natural weeds and flowers will supplant these store-bought foods. Is my percentage appropriate? Should these veggies be fed at all? This time of year, the majority of their diet consists of: weeds, flowers, shredded carrots, store bought "Spring Mix", collard greens, turnip greens, beet greens, endive as well as seasonally available leaves, grasses and clover. They also receive the occasional "table scraps" of other vegetables and VERY few pieces of fruit, such as strawberry or apple slices. Your help is appreciated, not only regarding the veggies, but about everything else as well. Thanks.

 

[Tom]

Hi orv! I don't know that there has been a lot of scientific study on this. Most of what we read about tortoise diets is based on opinion, but hopefully these opinions are educated guesses put forth by people with a lot of experience and success.

Here is my opinion and some explanation with it:
Your diet it is way too rich and sugary for a desert species. Think about what is growing out there in the desert, even with the summer rains. Corn, legumes and carrots? These foods might be okay as part of a mix for forest tortoise species like red foots or Indotestudo, but not for a desert tortoise. Corn really isn't great for anything. Carrots are too high in sugar. I'm okay with legumes for young growing tortoises or egg producing females if you are soaking at least 3-4 times a week, but that is too much protein for a grown adult male or a tortoise that isn't very well hydrated. You can cause the formation of a bladder stone. And I wouldn't feed fruit at all. It is bad for them. Too much sugar and it upsets the gut flora and fauna. They don't need it and its not good for them.

My Dad lives in Hemet, so I'm familiar with your climate. There are good weeds growing most of the year there, and with some water, you should be able to grow all sorts of grasses too.

There are several problems with grocery store produce:

• Some items are too low in calcium
• Most items lack fiber
• Poor calcium to phosphorous ratio

If you must use grocery store greens for part of the year, it is best to make endive and escarole the main staples and add in collard, mustard and turnip greens, cilantro, bok choy, carrot tops, celery tops, and whatever else you can find for some variety. You need to "amend" this grocery store produce by adding something to it. Grass, chopped and rehydrated grass hay, ZooMed Grassland tortoise chow, or something like that mixed in with the greens will give it some much needed fiber. Look into the "Herbal Hay" from tortoisesupply.com too.

One thing that is conspicuously absent from your desert tortoise's diet is any sort of succulent. Succulents make up a large part of their diet in the wild and there are so easy for us to grow here in our climate. You can grow many varieties of your own, or you can buy "nopales" at any of the Mexican grocery stores out near you. Tres Sierras or Vallarta Markets always have these in stock. In my opinion, spineless opuntia should make up a large percentage of a desert tortoise's diet. I have a dozen varieties growing at my place. Ice plant, red apple ground cover, aloe, elephant bush and many others can be added for variety. Several types of sedum are good too.

Our tortoises are adaptable and can survive a lot, but I think its best to provide them with what is optimal, rather than what is most convenient, or what they like best. Trying to simulate what they would eat in the wild, like grass for a sulcata or some fruit for a red foot usually yields good results and a long life.

If you are up for a drive, I'm just over 100 miles from you. You are welcome to come up and I'll show you these things first hand and send you home with a bunch of free opuntia pads for planting.

Here is a thread I did on feeding tortoises. It was typed for sulcatas, so you would use less emphasis on grass, but there is a good list of foods to feed farther down the page. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Hope this helps.

 

[orv]

TOM: Your response is most helpful. I take your input seriously. My wife and I would love to get together with you when we can get up north. Thanks.

 

[ascott]

Hi orv! I don't know that there has been a lot of scientific study on this. Most of what we read about tortoise diets is based on opinion, but hopefully these opinions are educated guesses put forth by people with a lot of experience and success.

Here is my opinion and some explanation with it:
Your diet it is way too rich and sugary for a desert species. Think about what is growing out there in the desert, even with the summer rains. Corn, legumes and carrots? These foods might be okay as part of a mix for forest tortoise species like red foots or Indotestudo, but not for a desert tortoise. Corn really isn't great for anything. Carrots are too high in sugar. I'm okay with legumes for young growing tortoises or egg producing females if you are soaking at least 3-4 times a week, but that is too much protein for a grown adult male or a tortoise that isn't very well hydrated. You can cause the formation of a bladder stone. And I wouldn't feed fruit at all. It is bad for them. Too much sugar and it upsets the gut flora and fauna. They don't need it and its not good for them.

My Dad lives in Hemet, so I'm familiar with your climate. There are good weeds growing most of the year there, and with some water, you should be able to grow all sorts of grasses too.

There are several problems with grocery store produce:

• Some items are too low in calcium
• Most items lack fiber
• Poor calcium to phosphorous ratio

If you must use grocery store greens for part of the year, it is best to make endive and escarole the main staples and add in collard, mustard and turnip greens, cilantro, bok choy, carrot tops, celery tops, and whatever else you can find for some variety. You need to "amend" this grocery store produce by adding something to it. Grass, chopped and rehydrated grass hay, ZooMed Grassland tortoise chow, or something like that mixed in with the greens will give it some much needed fiber. Look into the "Herbal Hay" from tortoisesupply.com too.

One thing that is conspicuously absent from your desert tortoise's diet is any sort of succulent. Succulents make up a large part of their diet in the wild and there are so easy for us to grow here in our climate. You can grow many varieties of your own, or you can buy "nopales" at any of the Mexican grocery stores out near you. Tres Sierras or Vallarta Markets always have these in stock. In my opinion, spineless opuntia should make up a large percentage of a desert tortoise's diet. I have a dozen varieties growing at my place. Ice plant, red apple ground cover, aloe, elephant bush and many others can be added for variety. Several types of sedum are good too.

Our tortoises are adaptable and can survive a lot, but I think its best to provide them with what is optimal, rather than what is most convenient, or what they like best. Trying to simulate what they would eat in the wild, like grass for a sulcata or some fruit for a red foot usually yields good results and a long life.

If you are up for a drive, I'm just over 100 miles from you. You are welcome to come up and I'll show you these things first hand and send you home with a bunch of free opuntia pads for planting.

Here is a thread I did on feeding tortoises. It was typed for sulcatas, so you would use less emphasis on grass, but there is a good list of foods to feed farther down the page. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Hope this helps.

Good stuff....also, the CDTs here, do love to encounter a lush turf..has not happened for awhile, but they will face plant and mow a field like no ones business.....while I do try to encourage natural vegetation, that growth cycle is brief, especially here in the High Desert in a dry year....so after the first few weeks they are awake and scouring for the natural vegetation...I then begin to supplement...I know some will scoff, and scoffing is allowed ...I offer a variety of romaine, red leaf, green leave, radicchio....while lettuce is not the ideal, it is fantastic for hydration and it allows the tort to enjoy yummy along with acceptable nutrition....I also have spineless cactus here that is offered ...but not always appreciated.....so the key is to offer as many varieties as possible but not to make yourself completely crazy....