Natural hibernation

[idcowden]

This is EXACTLY what a person should not do and this is explained in the brumation thread very clearly.

Actually it isn't. You state what you think people should do, but there isn't much about *why* as far as I can see. Why isn't letting them do what they want to do, a good idea?

I can't understand why you refuse to accept advice on this matter from someone who has decades of experience with it. Is it some sort of pride thing? Stubbornness? It makes no sense. Why ask for help and then react as you have?

I didn't ask for help. I asked for opinions - usually those come with some justifications. "you are doing it wong" isn't an answer that I would accept from anyone I work with, let along anyone on a hobby forum. People only learn from understanding *why* something might be a bad idea, not from being told.

I also don't quite understand how you propose that I separate my tortoises given the absence of space to do so, unless you have some extra-dimensional solution that I am not aware of.

To be fair, I have considered separating them. There is a small possibility which is turning what is currently a flower bed into a run extension and then altering what is currently a cold frame into a two compartment box. The complication is the roots for the wisteria and the apple tree that would be in the middle of the run. Not to mention the guineapig graveyard.

 

[Tom]

Actually it isn't. You state what you think people should do, but there isn't much about *why* as far as I can see. Why isn't letting them do what they want to do, a good idea?


I didn't ask for help. I asked for opinions - usually those come with some justifications. "you are doing it wong" isn't an answer that I would accept from anyone I work with, let along anyone on a hobby forum. People only learn from understanding *why* something might be a bad idea, not from being told.

I also don't quite understand how you propose that I separate my tortoises given the absence of space to do so, unless you have some extra-dimensional solution that I am not aware of.

To be fair, I have considered separating them. There is a small possibility which is turning what is currently a flower bed into a run extension and then altering what is currently a cold frame into a two compartment box. The complication is the roots for the wisteria and the apple tree that would be in the middle of the run. Not to mention the guineapig graveyard.

I'm glad you've decided to stick around and continue the conversation. I too am not a fan of anyone telling me "do it because I said so..." The "why" you are seeking is in the thread that you chose not to read. This one:

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

In short, the "why" is because temperatures that fluctuate too much, or temperatures that get too low or too high can kill them, and in practice in the real world, it often does. You know what doesn't kill them? Controlled, correct, stable temperatures for the entire duration of brumation. The other thing that kills them is an incorrect lead in or lead out of brumation. Most people don't cut the food soon enough, or don't keep them warm enough for long enough while they clear their gut before brumation. They can't do this if its too cold too soon, like when Mother Nature doesn't cooperate with our human plans. Allowing them to warm up in the middle of brumation and/or eat is often a death sentence. This is the "limbo" I speak of in the brumation thread. They either have to be kept at the correct cold temps, or they have to be allowed to warm up, bask and function. 6C sometimes and 21C at other times will simply not work and death is likely. People do this sort of thing all the time and then get on the internet and tell everyone how sad they are that their tortoise died and how scary and difficult brumation is. Its simple human error.

We can argue about what happens in the wild all day, but whatever either of our opinions on that are, it doesn't matter. In the wild they can wander for miles and find just the right slope facing just the right way with just the right amount of shade or sun, just the right ground composition just the right amount and type of leaf litter, etc... They can't do that in our relatively small enclosures in our walled in gardens or back yards, as we call them here. This is why whatever they do in nature, their "natural" brumation, cannot and does not work in captivity. We know what is needed and how to help them do it correctly.

The notion that they know what is needed and will make the right choices on their own is simply not true. Put some toxic plants in your enclosure and watch how quickly they eat it and die. My tortoise vet friends see cases of this regularly. Frequently my tropical tortoises that live outside will go bask and warm up in the sun, and then as night falls they go park under a bush when the night temps are going to drop as low as 2C. They have a heated box that will stay 27C all night long, but they choose to go park in the corner. If they know what is best, why would they do that?

To be fair, I have considered separating them. There is a small possibility which is turning what is currently a flower bed into a run extension and then altering what is currently a cold frame into a two compartment box. The complication is the roots for the wisteria and the apple tree that would be in the middle of the run. Not to mention the guineapig graveyard.

We have discussed the pair thing here so many times and so extensively. Tortoises don't have hackles to raise or lips to curl. They don't change color to display their displeasure like a chameleon can, so tortoise keepers just don't seem to want to hear this. This is lesson one for a chameleon keeper, but tortoise breeders regularly set pairs because they are ignorant, or just don't care about this. This is from the care sheet:
Pairs: Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. Groups of juveniles can sometimes work, but not pairs. Group dynamics are different than pair dynamics. Whenever there are just two, one will be dominant and the other submissive. The dominant is clearly telling the submissive to "GET OUT!" of my territory, but the submissive can't. This can be seen in animals as primitive as flatworms. Most people do not see the signs in tortoises. Our tortoises don't have the ability to growl. They don't have lips to snarl, or hackles to raise, yet they show their hostility just the same, but in their own way. Following each other, cuddling in a shelter, sleeping face to face, sitting on the food pile... All of these are blatant tortoise aggression. People are looking for biting, ramming and other overt signs. Those overt behaviors do happen in some cases, but more often the two tortoises are just forced to live in each other's space in a state of constant chronic stress, while the owner thinks everything is just fine because they aren't actively attacking and biting each other. It is NOT fine. Keep tortoises alone, which is totally fine, or in groups of three or more, which can sometimes lead to other problems down the road as they all begin to mature. Tortoises do not want or need company. Some species tolerate company better than others, but none should be kept in pairs. For some breeding projects, it is advantageous to raise them up in groups, but never pairs. If you only want two tortoises, that is great. Get two separate enclosures. And two outdoor enclosures for fair weather too.

If you have a question about why I say anything I say, simply ask for more explanation. I don't make random assertions for no reason. The things I say are based on the things I've seen all over the world over decades of keeping a variety of species in a variety of ways. I'm just trying to help man. I had to learn a lot of this the hard way, at the expense of the animals in my care. I would prefer to help prevent others from making the same mistakes I have made in the past.

 

[mark1]

temperatures that fluctuate too much, or temperatures that get too low or too high can kill them, and in practice in the real world, it often does.

Tom , i respectfully disagree ....... turtles here can and will come out in march on a 75degree sunny day, bask and get their body temps up like it's summer, i'd guess easily 80-90degrees, touch them and they are hot, have that night get down below freezing , soon as the air temp is less than the water they plunge into 40-45 degree water so they don't freeze to death.... day after that may not get above freezing..... imo, brumation is hibernation made for temperature fluctuations..... temperate turtles are right at home with temp fluctuations.... we can get 2 feet of snow early april after it's been70-80 degrees and sunny for a week , these are freestone rivers here, they can go from 70-40 overnight..... these rivers naturally hold softshells, mud, musk, painted, maps, blandings, NA woods, spotted, and snapping turtles.... they're built for this

Why isn't letting them do what they want to do, a good idea?

IMO, nothing wrong with letting them do what they do, but they need the proper accommodations to do what they need to do, and they don't need something artificial to influence unnatural behavior...... providing the kind of heat you are providing is not normal...... during BRUMATION , they seek as much warmth as they can find , they're not looking for colder spots in winter..... providing a consistent 35c spot in winter is about as far from natural as you can get, definitely will not promote normal brumating behavior........ to be able to constantly get that kind of warmth i would think would produce an energy depleted tortoise come spring ....being cold is the reason they don't need to eat....... what i think they need to brumate safely , not get frozen.......

 

[Tom]

Tom , i respectfully disagree ....... turtles here can and will come out in march on a 75degree sunny day, bask and get their body temps up like it's summer, i'd guess easily 80-90degrees, touch them and they are hot, have that night get down below freezing , soon as the air temp is less than the water they plunge into 40-45 degree water so they don't freeze to death.... day after that may not get above freezing..... imo, brumation is hibernation made for temperature fluctuations..... temperate turtles are right at home with temp fluctuations.... we can get 2 feet of snow early april after it's been70-80 degrees and sunny for a week , these are freestone rivers here, they can go from 70-40 overnight..... these rivers naturally hold softshells, mud, musk, painted, maps, blandings, NA woods, spotted, and snapping turtles.... they're built for this

You are talking about turtles. Turtles that are in water. We are talking about Mediterranean tortoises in a climate very different than yours or mine, or where they come from.

I know that your methods work for you there in Ohio. I won't argue as your success is obvious, and the species you keep seem to do great with your methods. My issue is that here, in my climate, when people do what you are saying to do, tortoises die. Same thing in the UK.

 

[idcowden]

IMO, nothing wrong with letting them do what they do, but they need the proper accommodations to do what they need to do, and they don't need something artificial to influence unnatural behavior...... providing the kind of heat you are providing is not normal...... during BRUMATION , they seek as much warmth as they can find , they're not looking for colder spots in winter..... providing a consistent 35c spot in winter is about as far from natural as you can get, definitely will not promote normal brumating behavior........

I get what you are saying, but the Tortoise that did decide to brumate has no interest in that 35 degree basking spot. She went to a place that she felt was right and dug down about a foot. She only moved in those 4 weeks because I dug her up to check on her (probably shouldn't have done that), and also because I was worried about an unusual super cold snap that we had. Even after I moved her back nearer the warmth she dug bag down again and further out to an area that was the right temperature for brumation.

Tortoise 2 stayed closer in to the heat but did stop eating for a while before she started to Brumate. Similarly my friend's Russian just stops eating when temps get a little colder then digs herself right down. She will stay down for 6 months at a time. She is much older than my two however.

As I said, I hadn't planned to Brumate them - they chose to do it themselves.

 

[mark1]

no doubt the ground is more stable than the water , but , below is the soil temps for the past 2 days and a forecast for the next 6 days....... box turtles go no deeper than 4" here ..... at 4" the ground was 33 degrees yesterday at 12pm, at 3pm it was 41 degrees, that's 8 degrees in 3hrs..... today at 1pm it was 33 degrees, the forecast for friday is 48 degrees , that's 15 degrees ....

it's actually not my method , it's theirs/natures, i just know what they're looking for and provide it , they take care of the rest ......

 

[MaNaAk]

Hi All,

Our spur thigh Tortoises (Testudo graeca) have been happily living in an outdoor enclosure I built for them. It's a nice size (I think) being about 8ft x 5ft, and safe from foxes etc with a chickenwire mesh lid that I can remove in panels. They have a cold frame (2ft x 2ft) with a ceramic heater, which is run from a thermostatic control to ensure that the temperature never drops below 20c during the day or about 6c at night (on the coldest nights I put a tarp over to keep in heat). The tortoises are 3 years old. Oh - and I am in South East England so temperature wise it seldom gets extremely cold.

Anyway - I have never tried to hibernate them, but my theory was that as they can choose whether to be inside the cold frame or out then they could choose whether or not to hibernate.

Coco decided to hibernate herself at the end of November when the weather was quite cold. She dug herself down outside the cold frame and happily stayed there for 4 weeks. I did dig her up to check on her and she moved herself closer to the cold frame. When we had a big freeze, I did move her inside the cold frame where she dug herself back down. Now at the beginning of Feb when I checked at her her eyes were open and she was moving a little - seems like she is ready to finish.

Esio on the other hand continued to eat and pop in and out all the way through December until mid Jan. She didn't dig down and cover herself, but found a corner of the cold frame and dug a little trench to sit in. She remains, at this stage resolutely hibernating with her head firmly inside her shell and limbs across like closed doors.

I'm assuming that this approach is fine? They both seem happy. I gave Coco a bath today to warm her up and see if she wants to eat yet. I'm going to give Esio a little more time yet...

Am I doing the right thing? Any opinions gratefully received.

*yes I know there should be at least 3 of them. I'm working on a second enclosure or a divider for the existing one. Although they generally seem to get on with one another

Dear @idcowden,

How old are your tortoises? I have a Spur-thighed Tortoise called Jacky who is 88 years old and who is hibernating in a fridge for the first time this winter. Jacky and Daisy (1942 - 2022) hibernated outdoors for seventy-two years. Could we see some pictures when they come out of hibernation. Below is a picture of Jacky and Daisy:

Natrah

 

[MaNaAk]

Dear @idcowden,

How old are your tortoises? I have a Spur-thighed Tortoise called Jacky who is 88 years old and who is hibernating in a fridge for the first time this winter. Jacky and Daisy (1942 - 2022) hibernated outdoors for seventy-two years. Could we see some pictures when they come out of hibernation. Below is a picture of Jacky and Daisy:

Natrah View attachment 366232View attachment 366233

A friend described the pattern on Jacky's she'll as an EEC marking!

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Looks like WEB if you orient it right. lol

 

[idcowden]

How old are your tortoises?

They are just reaching 4 years old I think. Yes, happy to post some pictures when they decide to emerge. In the meantime, here are a few from last August.

 

[MaNaAk]

They are just reaching 4 years old I think. Yes, happy to post some pictures when they decide to emerge. In the meantime, here are a few from last August.

View attachment 366391View attachment 366393View attachment 366394

Absolutely gorgeous. More pics of Jacky and Daisy:

 

[Cathie G]

Ok I'm getting a cuteness overload 😍

 

[MaNaAk]

Ok I'm getting a cuteness overload 😍

Good morning everyone!

After climbing over Daisy, Jacky came to see me!

Natrah

 

[idcowden]

Well, despite fortellings of doom and gloom, both Esio and Coco have reappeared of their own accord. The smaller of the two brumated pretty much all the way from the end of October to about a week ago. The larger one only bothered with brumating from January to about a week ago.

They are both in fine fettle. However, (YOU WIN TOM!). I was watching them today and it does look like there is bullying going on. So next week I'm going to look at building a separate extension from the main tortoise house and partitioning the cold frame.

 

[Tom]

Well, despite fortellings of doom and gloom, both Esio and Coco have reappeared of their own accord. The smaller of the two brumated pretty much all the way from the end of October to about a week ago. The larger one only bothered with brumating from January to about a week ago.

They are both in fine fettle. However, (YOU WIN TOM!). I was watching them today and it does look like there is bullying going on. So next week I'm going to look at building a separate extension from the main tortoise house and partitioning the cold frame.

You make light of the doom and gloom foretelling, but its not so funny when people lose their animals because they left them outside. I see it every year here. I hope that you never experience that sort of tragic loss, and I can assure you, you won't be so glib if it ever does happen. I'm not trying to be your enemy or adversary. I'm trying to help you avoid a terrible heartache, and the suffering of your animals should things go poorly outdoors, as they so often do.

The overt obvious bullying is not what we were warning you about. I'm glad that you see it now and intend to separate them, but they really needed to be separated, even if you weren't seeing it.

I'm genuinely glad that they made through winter, and they will both be happier alone.