Orchid bark saga

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I was thinking about it, yet still have concerns:
1. Besides obvious irritations and respiratory symptoms, pine contains some compounds resulting in liver damage. This is true about pine shavings, haven't found if such compounds are present in bark. There are some warnings about use of pine shavings for rabbits, chickens and reptiles (e.g. at anapsid.org or reptileforums.co.uk) with more or less references to backing studies.
2. Some negative effects need time and fumes concentration to develop and if tortoise is moved outdoors or to the open table then severe damage may not happen at all.
3. It could be dependent on pine tree species. E.g. Douglas fir is in Pinaceae too and likely to have some dangerous compounds (like abietic acid) but content is probably less than in Pinus genus.
4. Most of the toxicity reports are associated with inhaling wood dust - which is less an issue when bark is moistened and stay in high humidity environment.

Those first few points definitely concern me and I absolutely hate to think I’ve potentially hurt her in some way repeatedly exposing her to the substrate😭

I honestly had no idea what to switch to though😣
Nor and I’m sure for to proceed advising uk members on substrate

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I have gone through my fair share of substrate problems... I haven't found any reasonably priced bark here in Finland, of which I could be 100% sure that it doesn't have pine. Most of the bark sold is pine bark. Only the exoterra branded bark seems safe enough to buy, but the price would be quite high. For now I am sticking with coco coir, but the one I found otherwise safe contains some long coco fibers which are an impaction risk.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I have gone through my fair share of substrate problems... I haven't found any reasonably priced bark here in Finland, of which I could be 100% sure that it doesn't have pine. Most of the bark sold is pine bark. Only the exoterra branded bark seems safe enough to buy, but the price would be quite high. For now I am sticking with coco coir, but the one I found otherwise safe contains some long coco fibers which are an impaction risk.

I just hope I’ve not caused her any damage and can correct things moving forward😣 but I’ve honestly got no clue how to proceed, I think I’m going to send my findings to the brands and see what they come back with. I did look at both exoterra and zoo med reptibark, but the price would be impossible for the amount we need, this has honestly made things really difficult!😭

Trying to brainstorm a solution..they don’t like coir which is fair enough because it can be so messy, forest floor/mulch doesn’t come in big enough bags here😣I’m truly stumped😕

 

[Cathie G]

Do any of you guys happen to have experience with orchid bark here in the uk? @Cathie G @Sarah2020 @Karen(pebbles)

I'm not from the UK but I like it mixed about 50/50 with coco choir for my Russian. I used ZooMed I believe. You can bake it if you're not sure it's sterilized at around 125°f for a few hours. But the pet brands should already be free of pests. I didn't and mine is fine.

 

[wellington]

I'm not from the UK but I like it mixed about 50/50 with coco choir for my Russian. I used ZooMed I believe. You can bake it if you're not sure it's sterilized at around 125°f for a few hours. But the pet brands should already be free of pests. I didn't and mine is fine.

Actually your better using temp of 200-250. That's what I have always recommended years ago and for about 3 hours. That can be bark.or coir.
125 is quite low and should go longer if using that low.

 

[Cathie G]

Actually your better using temp of 200-250. That's what I have always recommended years ago and for about 3 hours. That can be bark.or coir.
125 is quite low and should go longer if using that low.

Yes. 125 is recommended for doing the same for hand collected pinecones for several hours or overnight. Or any bark, limbs etc. for crafts. It doesn't take as long at 200-250.😊

 

[wellington]

Yes. 125 is recommended for doing the same for hand collected pinecones for several hours or overnight. Or any bark, limbs etc. for crafts. It doesn't take as long at 200-250.😊

So a lot more hours, even over night at such a low temp? That seems very silly and such a waste and expense, even dangerous, over night, yikes, when 3 hours is all that's needed at 200-250.

 

[Cathie G]

So a lot more hours, even over night at such a low temp? That seems very silly and such a waste and expense, even dangerous, over night, yikes, when 3 hours is all that's needed at 200-250.

It was really a mild way to dry things and get rid of bugs for my crafts. So do it while you can be present and awake. It's not as hard on the wood to be dried at a slower pace.

 

[wellington]

It was really a mild way to dry things and get rid of bugs for my crafts. So do it while you can be present and awake. It's not as hard on the wood to be dried at a slower pace.

I guess for crafts that could be an issue, the hotter temps. I never did a craft where I had to bake the wood.

 

[Cathie G]

I guess for crafts that could be an issue, the hotter temps. I never did a craft where I had to bake the wood.

Pine cones from the wild for one but other things too. It doesn't take a high temperature to kill the bugs and it's easier on the stuff so it doesn't become brittle. But I don't know for sure. I haven't tried a higher temperature to see if I would like that better.

 

[wellington]

Pine cones from the wild for one but other things too. It doesn't take a high temperature to kill the bugs and it's easier on the stuff so it doesn't become brittle. But I don't know for sure. I haven't tried a higher temperature to see if I would like that better.

I have never had a problem with the higher temp. I have done this for years. I like the higher temp to kill faster as the substrate is being placed in my oven. Yikes if any were able to crawl into a safe place before getting baked lol.
Substrate usually have the eggs that one is trying to kill. Because they can withstand more extremes then the already grown bug, I feel is the reason the higher temp is recommended. I tried freezing and the eggs were able to survive and I still got the bugs, delayed some compared to doing nothing. Baking, I have gone over a year without getting any bugs.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

We so happened to be at the same reptile vet we took Squirt to a few months ago with our boa constrictor.

She’s genuinely a very good reptile vet we’ve been lucky finding, we all know how hard it is to find vets that actually know how to appropriately treat tortoises, what I loved about her is one of the first things I said meeting her was “please no vitamin injections” and she chuckled, said how much vets love giving those out to tortoise and started bringing up all the other red flags I’d researched before even having to mention them! From treatments to specific medications, she doesn’t medicate without tests, and even then didn’t ever want to do any invasive tests on squirt, just a simple fecal sample and monitoring, her focus is correct husbandry, and she was very happy with all the information I gave her from this forum, she was pleasantly surprised in fact, I imagine she sees and hears all sorts😬she was a giant green flag😊

Anyway, I pulled her aside at the end of our appointment to get her opinion on this, she said provided the substrate doesn’t have an odour and that there’s no kind of respiratory symptoms, that it’s been prepared in such a way to make it safe for substrate use. I explained the brands and listings, what it’s made of etc and she didn’t have any concerns.

I think I’ve finally managed to reach the conclusion that over here in the uk, our pine tree types that are used, differ from US pine substrate, I’ve talked to other members who have accidentally brought pine bark over in the US, and they’ve said no matter what the smell stayed, which isn’t the case with squirts substrate.

I’d be lying if I said I’m still not entirely sure on how to feel about, it all goes against everything I’ve always researched about pine bedding, but right now, I’m under the assumption that it’s been made safe for reptile use here.

For now at least, I’ll leave things as they are, I’ve done all I can with checking and researching multiple sources, reaching out to brands and getting a reptile vets opinion. All in all I guess I can’t ask for more reassurance than that.. yet here I am still overthinking and worrying about her and questioning if it’ll hurt her😣

My plan either way originally was going to be to bake our next batch of bark, but I have no clue how to bake over 140L’s of substrate, it would take days😬but it might be worth thinking about..

 

[Cathie G]

I have never had a problem with the higher temp. I have done this for years. I like the higher temp to kill faster as the substrate is being placed in my oven. Yikes if any were able to crawl into a safe place before getting baked lol.
Substrate usually have the eggs that one is trying to kill. Because they can withstand more extremes then the already grown bug, I feel is the reason the higher temp is recommended. I tried freezing and the eggs were able to survive and I still got the bugs, delayed some compared to doing nothing. Baking, I have gone over a year without getting any bugs.

I'll remember that for substrate. I've been lucky with it though evidently. I've have never had a problem with bugs and I didn't bake the coco choir or the ZooMed orchid bark. Maybe it's better to be safe than sorry though.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

@Markw84 and @Kapidolo Farms would be good to hear from on this.

The BEST substrate, really the BEST one.

The best substrate is not one item, there is some thinking and consideration involved YOU have to do. Just asking what's best and getting a single answer, a correct answer is impossible - because there are many 'bests'. The constant drive for a single best this or that, substrate is what this...

tortoiseforum.org

I read the OP and after a few paragraphs of an extended history, there were no questions marks, so I offer no specific answer. The link here is my general thoughts on the topic. I subscribe to many cheloninan groups on FB, and notice the Brits obsess on substrate. I don't know why.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

The BEST substrate, really the BEST one.

The best substrate is not one item, there is some thinking and consideration involved YOU have to do. Just asking what's best and getting a single answer, a correct answer is impossible - because there are many 'bests'. The constant drive for a single best this or that, substrate is what this...

tortoiseforum.org

I read the OP and after a few paragraphs of an extended history, there were no questions marks, so I offer no specific answer. The link here is my general thoughts on the topic. I subscribe to many cheloninan groups on FB, and notice the Brits obsess on substrate. I don't know why.

Sorry I do babble! I’m terrible for it🤣
I guess ultimately my question was how safe substrate made of maritime pine and coniferous trees actually is if prepared properly?

It’s honestly the only time it’s flagged up as a concern for me, seeing pine in the title and all my previous research lead me to think I’d potentially put something toxic in😕

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I just gave the thread you tagged a quick read, I generally agree with everything there apart from using bagged organic soil or top soils brought from stores🙂

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Sorry I do babble! I’m terrible for it🤣
I guess ultimately my question was how safe substrate made of maritime pine and coniferous trees actually is if prepared properly?

It’s honestly the only time it’s flagged up as a concern for me, seeing pine in the title and all my previous research lead me to think I’d potentially put something toxic in😕

Its the wood itself that when chipped or shredded will have the resins that are noxious to animals. The barks are okay. SAFE is the most abused word in animal husbandry. Keeping pets is inherently not safe, if there is a dumb thing a pet can do to harm or hurt itself it will.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Its the wood itself that when chipped or shredded will have the resins that are noxious to animals. The barks are okay. SAFE is the most abused word in animal husbandry. Keeping pets is inherently not safe, if there is a dumb thing a pet can do to harm or hurt itself it will.

You’re not wrong tbh🥲thanks for the input! Appreciated🙏

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

SAFE is the most abused word in animal husbandry.

Have to agree with this. Most of the time it is an exaggeration.

 

[Cathie G]

Yes. I know a rabbit isn't a tortoise but in a way care is similar. With a rabbit apple twigs for chewing have to be totally dried or they're toxic to them. Bark is probably the same for a tortoise 🐢