Pancake Tortoise in 72'' x 30'' x 12'' Tortoise Table

[Famov]

Hello everyone,

I am just over a week away from bringing a juvenile Pancake Tortoise into my home. This will be my first experience caring for a reptile of any kind. Virtually everything is ready to go, aside from the lighting. Very early on in my reading I purchased an 80 watt mercury vapor bulb and fixture, but I appreciate that there are many options for heating and lighting and that my table may require more than a lone all-in-one bulb to adequately meet the temperature and UV needs of this animal.

Complicating things further is that I've got a wire mesh lid over the table, seen in the attached pictures, which as I understand will block some of the effectiveness of the bulbs I put in place. As such, I'm just not entirely certain how best to proceed. I've read a fair bit about fluorescent UVB bulbs, mercury vapor bulbs, halogen lights, and ceramic heat emitters, but am not sure as to which combination of these will provide the best environment possible for a tortoise that will spend the bulk of its time indoors. Any insight would be much appreciated, and I am open to all suggestions. I'll also answer any questions, if more information is needed.

Thanks in advance. I'll do what it takes to get this right.

 

[wellington]

The wire top is fine. It's a big enough mesh it won't stop uvb.
The water dish needs to be replaced. Its dangerous. Low sided clay saucer like those that go under flower pots.
Mercury vapor bulbs are no longer recommended. They still cause pyramiding even in the best enclosure.
I don't know what temps or humidity the Pancakes need. Check the caresheet for that.
More rock formation making caves and crevices is needed too.

 

[Famov]

Understood, thanks. I will make the recommended changes.

I placed two different water dishes in the enclosure in the event that one was better than the other. Are both unsafe, or just the one with the ramp?

 

[Markw84]

Before you go too much further, may I offer some advice?

I would really recommend using a closed chamber for raising a pancake tortoise. It seems rare to see a perfectly formed, natural-looking, unpyramided pancake tortoise. This is due to the set-ups, exactly like you have created for your tortoise, unfortunately. If you follow the care sheets for raising a star, leopard or sulcata here on the forum, you will be able to raise a perfectly smooth and extremely healthy pancake! Although pyramiding itself is often considered cosmetic, it is an indicator of less-than-ideal growing conditions, and that well can also have an effect we cannot see on the development of metabolic processes of the baby tortoise.

The only addition to the care sheet for my pancakes, is that I also do add some flat, stacked shale-type rocks to create very low hiding spots they can feel secure under. I use fir bark substrate, kept moist, with the flat rock, very low hiding spots where it stays very humid.

Please do not use a mercury vapor bulb! Use an Arcadia Pro T5 12% UVB kit. 24". Then add a 65watt - 75 watt incandescent BR30 or A19 bulb. Also provide plenty of additional bright light from some good 5000k - 6000k LED lights. Never let the enclosure dip below 80°F or 80%RH.

Here's one of my pancakes I raised this way for reference:

 

[wellington]

Understood, thanks. I will make the recommended changes.

I placed two different water dishes in the enclosure in the event that one was better than the other. Are both unsafe, or just the one with the ramp?

The ramp one needs to go.

 

[Famov]

Before you go too much further, may I offer some advice?

I would really recommend using a closed chamber for raising a pancake tortoise. It seems rare to see a perfectly formed, natural-looking, unpyramided pancake tortoise. This is due to the set-ups, exactly like you have created for your tortoise, unfortunately. If you follow the care sheets for raising a star, leopard or sulcata here on the forum, you will be able to raise a perfectly smooth and extremely healthy pancake! Although pyramiding itself is often considered cosmetic, it is an indicator of less-than-ideal growing conditions, and that well can also have an effect we cannot see on the development of metabolic processes of the baby tortoise.

The only addition to the care sheet for my pancakes, is that I also do add some flat, stacked shale-type rocks to create very low hiding spots they can feel secure under. I use fir bark substrate, kept moist, with the flat rock, very low hiding spots where it stays very humid.

Please do not use a mercury vapor bulb! Use an Arcadia Pro T5 12% UVB kit. 24". Then add a 65watt - 75 watt incandescent BR30 or A19 bulb. Also provide plenty of additional bright light from some good 5000k - 6000k LED lights. Never let the enclosure dip below 80°F or 80%RH.

Here's one of my pancakes I raised this way for reference:

View attachment 349062

Thank you so much for your advice, and I apologize for not replying sooner. I've taken everything you've said to heart, and have been making adjustments accordingly. This includes purchasing the exact lights you've suggested. The table is well lit, both with LEDs, the Arcadia UVB strip, and the incandescent heater. And I've expanded the rock formation and lined it with moistened moss that I wet daily. The dedicated hide is also lined with this moss, and constant 80% humidity is easy to achieve in there.

The only recommendation that I have not yet tried to accommodate is with the enclosure itself, as (and I hope this doesn't sound conceited) I've put a lot of work into that thing and I wanted to be able to provide the tortoise with as much space as I could reasonably manage. I realize that the chief disadvantage of this is that temperature and humidity are more difficult to maintain, though I think I've been able to pull off a reasonable temperature gradient. The humidity (outside of the hide) is more of a concern. I've been adding generous amounts of water the the substrate (though not enough to make it sodden) just to fight against the constant evaporation. The cooler side naturally holds the humidity a bit better, but I'm certainly not at 80% throughout. Can I achieve better results by, say, covering the grate on the hot side to restrict airflow? It would still have plenty of ventilation on the other side. I had read that the juveniles would be good with 50-60%, which I thought I could achieve with the setup I was putting together.

With regards to temperature, I can achieve 80+ degrees throughout roughly 50% of the enclosure. It doesn't drop below 72 degrees on the coolest edge. As large as my table is, would a second heat bulb, perhaps of lower intensity, be good placed slightly further down the table? I'll reduce the AC in my house (the vents in that room are already closed) if that's what it takes to get desired temperatures.

The little guy has been in my possession for two full days now and he is so far exploring, eating well, and nestling in with the moss at night, which I assume are all good signs. I want to do the absolute best I can for him (or her!), but I'm really hoping I can achieve that with the table. Is it at all possible?

Thank you for your time.

 

[TammyJ]

Markw84 gave you vital advice regarding the way to prevent pyramiding, with a closed enclosure to maintain the correct humidity levels.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Thank you so much for your advice, and I apologize for not replying sooner. I've taken everything you've said to heart, and have been making adjustments accordingly. This includes purchasing the exact lights you've suggested. The table is well lit, both with LEDs, the Arcadia UVB strip, and the incandescent heater. And I've expanded the rock formation and lined it with moistened moss that I wet daily. The dedicated hide is also lined with this moss, and constant 80% humidity is easy to achieve in there.

The only recommendation that I have not yet tried to accommodate is with the enclosure itself, as (and I hope this doesn't sound conceited) I've put a lot of work into that thing and I wanted to be able to provide the tortoise with as much space as I could reasonably manage. I realize that the chief disadvantage of this is that temperature and humidity are more difficult to maintain, though I think I've been able to pull off a reasonable temperature gradient. The humidity (outside of the hide) is more of a concern. I've been adding generous amounts of water the the substrate (though not enough to make it sodden) just to fight against the constant evaporation. The cooler side naturally holds the humidity a bit better, but I'm certainly not at 80% throughout. Can I achieve better results by, say, covering the grate on the hot side to restrict airflow? It would still have plenty of ventilation on the other side. I had read that the juveniles would be good with 50-60%, which I thought I could achieve with the setup I was putting together.

With regards to temperature, I can achieve 80+ degrees throughout roughly 50% of the enclosure. It doesn't drop below 72 degrees on the coolest edge. As large as my table is, would a second heat bulb, perhaps of lower intensity, be good placed slightly further down the table? I'll reduce the AC in my house (the vents in that room are already closed) if that's what it takes to get desired temperatures.

The little guy has been in my possession for two full days now and he is so far exploring, eating well, and nestling in with the moss at night, which I assume are all good signs. I want to do the absolute best I can for him (or her!), but I'm really hoping I can achieve that with the table. Is it at all possible?

Thank you for your time.

There's a decently easy fix for your open top! You can create a frame out of pretty much any material (wire, wood, pvc, etc) to make something like a tent. Cover the frame in plastic, like a clear shower curtain. You want your heating elements inside of this tent. I did this for my sulcata's grow out enclosure.
Very old and there's a lot I would change, but here it is the day it was finished. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/finally.162904/

Very excited for you! I would love to keep pancakes in the future.

 

[Famov]

There's a decently easy fix for your open top! You can create a frame out of pretty much any material (wire, wood, pvc, etc) to make something like a tent. Cover the frame in plastic, like a clear shower curtain. You want your heating elements inside of this tent. I did this for my sulcata's grow out enclosure.
Very old and there's a lot I would change, but here it is the day it was finished. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/finally.162904/

Very excited for you! I would love to keep pancakes in the future.

Thank you! This seems like a great idea. If you don't mind my asking, how were you able to achieve ventilation?

Do you think that I would be able to accomplish something similar by covering most of the top with plexiglass, shower curtain, etc, with just enough of an opening for the heating element, UVB light, and an open strip for airflow? I know that would leave more open sections than you had with the tent since that went over the lights. I may try both options, just to see what gives the most benefit. Again, thank you for the suggestion.

I have to confess, I would absolutely love to raise up one of the larger species as well, and I know that there are a lot of Sulcattas out there in need of a home, but as a Michigan native that unfortunately appears to be out of the question.

 

[Tom]

Having the heating and lighting on the outside creates a chimney effect that draws the heat and humidity right up and out, pulling cooler drier air in from every crack and crevice. I know its a hard pill to swallow, but the only way an open topped enclosure works is if the conditions in the room match what the tortoise needs, as in the case of some of the temperate species. Room temp is too cool, and there is no way to maintain the needed humidity in a dry air conditioned or heated room. That is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof on it. It just doesn't work. The tent idea can hold in some humidity, but it doesn't hold in heat very well.

Unfortunately, most of what is written on tortoise care is all wrong. People spend hours of their time pouring over multiple sources, and it is unbelievably frustrating to find out that it is all the same unanimous old wrong info. I tried for hours to find a decent tortoise care video on YT and found nothing but frustration. Vets, breeders, FB, all wrong. All have learned the same wrong stuff from the same wrong sources that all of us here on the forum learned from. The info didn't work, and people like me and Mark, along with many others, took the time to figure out what was wrong with that info, and also how to do it right. We all freely share that info now, but some people can't seem to accept it.

Here is the care sheet that was mentioned, along with a lighting breakdown:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Questions are welcome. Our only interest here is helping you succeed and not make the same mistakes we have all made, and watched other people make.

 

[Famov]

Having the heating and lighting on the outside creates a chimney effect that draws the heat and humidity right up and out, pulling cooler drier air in from every crack and crevice. I know its a hard pill to swallow, but the only way an open topped enclosure works is if the conditions in the room match what the tortoise needs, as in the case of some of the temperate species. Room temp is too cool, and there is no way to maintain the needed humidity in a dry air conditioned or heated room. That is like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof on it. It just doesn't work. The tent idea can hold in some humidity, but it doesn't hold in heat very well.

Unfortunately, most of what is written on tortoise care is all wrong. People spend hours of their time pouring over multiple sources, and it is unbelievably frustrating to find out that it is all the same unanimous old wrong info. I tried for hours to find a decent tortoise care video on YT and found nothing but frustration. Vets, breeders, FB, all wrong. All have learned the same wrong stuff from the same wrong sources that all of us here on the forum learned from. The info didn't work, and people like me and Mark, along with many others, took the time to figure out what was wrong with that info, and also how to do it right. We all freely share that info now, but some people can't seem to accept it.

Here is the care sheet that was mentioned, along with a lighting breakdown:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Questions are welcome. Our only interest here is helping you succeed and not make the same mistakes we have all made, and watched other people make.

Fair enough, so the top effectively cannot be open to achieve optimal results. I've got all of the lights (UVB, LED, incandescent basking, and ceramic heat emitters) precisely as they've been recommended, and everything else that I need as specified in the resource you've linked to. With that in mind, would my best solution not be to simply amend the table I already have so that it becomes a closed system, with all of the requisite lights/heating elements on the inside? Can I do so while maintaining proper ventilation? Is the current 12'' ceiling high enough to have everything on the inside without negatively impacting the health of the tortoise?

I will always be amenable to new information and am willing to do what it takes to do the right thing for the animal, but at the risk of stating the obvious I'm desperately looking for a solution that doesn't involve relegating the 6 ft box I've already built into glorified firewood. After all, I've already got five out of six sides of a closed system. I'm really hoping that it's as simple as closing that top.

 

[Tom]

Fair enough, so the top effectively cannot be open to achieve optimal results. I've got all of the lights (UVB, LED, incandescent basking, and ceramic heat emitters) precisely as they've been recommended, and everything else that I need as specified in the resource you've linked to. With that in mind, would my best solution not be to simply amend the table I already have so that it becomes a closed system, with all of the requisite lights/heating elements on the inside? Can I do so while maintaining proper ventilation? Is the current 12'' ceiling high enough to have everything on the inside without negatively impacting the health of the tortoise?

I will always be amenable to new information and am willing to do what it takes to do the right thing for the animal, but at the risk of stating the obvious I'm desperately looking for a solution that doesn't involve relegating the 6 ft box I've already built into glorified firewood. After all, I've already got five out of six sides of a closed system. I'm really hoping that it's as simple as closing that top.

It can be done in an 18 inch tall chamber, but 24-30 inches is preferable. More height inside also allows you to stack up some flat stones or slate too, which is a good thing for your species. 12 inches is not enough room to hang the lights.

Ventilation is not an issue. Ventilation is what lets all the heat and humidity out. Between the all the cracks and crevices, plus the doors, there is always enough ventilation in a closed chamber.

Be aware that containing all the heat and lighting inside the enclosure means that you only need to burn a fraction of the electricity. This means lower wattage bulbs all around, and that thermostat will help too. It is very easy to maintain the correct warm temps in a closed chamber, instead of fighting the room temp.

I hope you know that you are not the first person to go through this. I've done this with many people many times over many years. I don't know how to make it any easier. I had to go through it myself many years ago, realizing that what was recommended to me and what I was using simply did not and could not work. I had to go through years of trial and error, experimentation, and countless conversations with many tortoise keepers to figure out all the stuff I am sharing with you. Take a little solace in the fact that you don't have to figure it all out the hard way. Your enclosure does look fantastic and it would suit a Testudo adult just fine if it were a little bigger, but it just doesn't work well for a tortoise that doesn't need cool nights and a wide thermal gradient.

P.S. Did anyone mention that moss is an impaction hazard and needs to be removed ASAP. They all eat it eventually.